HL Deb 20 April 1998 vol 588 cc934-48

3.49 p.m.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, with the leave of the House I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows: "Madam Speaker, with permission, I should like to make a Statement on the successful conclusion of the multi-party talks in Belfast.

"It is my privilege to be able to tell the House that a comprehensive political agreement was reached late in the afternoon of 10th April—Good Friday. The text has been published as Command Paper 3883. A copy is being sent to every home in Northern Ireland. I am very grateful to the Post Office for providing this service at business rate, so people across Northern Ireland have a chance to study the agreement in detail.

"The Government's main aim through these negotiations has been to secure political stability and lasting peace for all the people of Northern Ireland. As a result of the Belfast Agreement, that goal is now in sight.

"This is a unique agreement born of a unique set of negotiations—involving unionist, nationalist, republican and loyalist around the same talks table. This is a situation in which, though compromises have been made, everyone can be a winner. Everyone's political and cultural identity is respected and protected by this deal.

"Northern Ireland politics for so long has been seen as a zero sum game: this agreement demonstrates the potential for the people of Northern Ireland to move beyond that into a new type of politics in which everyone can gain. It represents a sensible, fair and workable way forward for both communities.

"I want to pay a particular tribute to the negotiating teams of all the parties involved. They have fulfilled the duty placed upon them by the people they represent. I would also like to pay tribute to a group, often vilified, who have worked for so many years to bring about this agreement often at personal risk to themselves and their families—the UK and Irish civil servants.

"It is important when we are talking about all these positive developments that we do not lose sight of the terrible price that has been paid by the victims of violence and their families. No amount of progress in the search for lasting peace will bring back those loved ones who have been lost or take away the pain felt day in day out by their families.

"I hope that Ken Bloomfield's Victims' Commission will, later this month, provide us with some practical suggestions as to how we can best recognise the suffering endured by the victims of violence and their families. Many of those families say to me similar words to those in the agreement itself that, 'the achievement of a peaceful and just society would he the true memorial to the victims of violence'. "The main elements in the agreement are: first, on constitutional issues, the British and Irish governments have formally resolved our historical differences through the general and mutual acceptance of the principle of consent, which means Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and will stay that way for as long as that is the wish of a majority of the people who live there, and it means that if the people of Northern Ireland were formally to consent to the establishment of a united Ireland, the government of the day would bring forward proposals, in consultation with the Irish Government, to give effect to that wish.

"Under the agreement, the Irish Government will bring forward proposals to amend the Irish Constitution to bring it into line with this understanding, and the necessary changes will be made to British constitutional legislation.

"Secondly, there will be greater democratic accountability in Northern Ireland through the devolution of a wide range of executive and legislative powers to a Northern Ireland assembly.

"In the assembly, posts of executive authority will be shared on a proportional basis and safeguards will be in place to protect the interests of both main parts of the community.

"Thirdly, there will be a north-south ministerial council bringing together those with executive authority, north and south, to work together by agreement on matters of mutual interest. Those participating on the council will be mandated by and remain accountable to the assembly and the Irish Parliament. At least six 'implementation bodies' will be identified within the next six months to put decisions taken by the council into effect on a cross border or all-island basis in specified areas. More such bodies or mechanisms may be established by agreement between the two sides, north and south.

"Fourthly, there will be a British-Irish council to bring together our two governments and representatives of devolved administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. This development builds on the Government's key programme of constitutional reform.

"Fifthly, there will be a new British-Irish agreement to replace the Anglo-Irish agreement of November 1985. This new agreement will be brought into effect as soon as the other elements of the deal are in place. The British-Irish agreement sets out the new shared understanding on constitutional matters. It also creates a new British-Irish intergovernmental conference which will deal with all bilateral issues between the two governments. And in recognition of the Irish Government's special interest in relation to Northern Ireland there will continue, as now, to be regular meetings between me and the Irish Foreign Minister.

"However, in future, relevant executive members of the Northern Ireland Administration will also be involved in these meetings to discuss non-devolved issues which arise in relation to Northern Ireland. The existing joint Anglo-Irish Secretariat at Maryfield will close before the end of this year.

"The agreement also includes a range of measures to enhance the proper protection of basic human rights including a new independent human rights commission in Northern Ireland to consult and advise on the scope for defining rights supplementary to those in the ECHR which the Government are already in the process of incorporating into our law across the UK.

"A public consultation is already under way about the proposals in our Partnership for Equality White Paper. Subject to that consultation, those proposals—including the establishment of a powerful new equality commission—are reflected in this agreement along with other proposals to encourage parity of esteem between the two main political and cultural traditions.

"Finally, the agreement looks ahead to the creation of a normal and peaceful society in Northern Ireland. It establishes a clear process for the decommissioning of illegal weapons that can start forthwith and a commitment by all the parties to work constructively in good faith with the independent commission and to use any influence they have to achieve the decommissioning of all paramilitary arms within two years of the referendum. It commits both Governments to reducing the profile of security measures and emergency legislation as the threat to peace and good order reduces.

"There will be an independent commission to consider what kind of policing service would be appropriate in a Northern Ireland free from the threat of terrorist violence and capable of fully commanding the support of both communities. There will also be a parallel review of the criminal justice system. The agreement also commits both governments to put in place mechanisms to provide for an accelerated programme for the release of prisoners. Let me be clear, this is not an easy issue for anyone. But it is an indispensable part of this agreement.

"For our part, the British Government will establish an independent sentence review body to look at each prisoner on a case by case basis to determine their eligibility for release. Most eligible prisoners will qualify for release on licence within two years. If the circumstances allow, the remainder will be released at that point. It must be emphasised however, that this timeframe is variable, depending on the degree of genuine commitment to peace.

"Prisoners associated with groups who do not maintain a complete and unequivocal cease-fire will not qualify. Those prisoners who do qualify, will be released on licence and returned to prison if they engage in any further terrorist activity.

"These are crucial safeguards and a briefing note giving more detail of the proposed arrangements has been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

"This agreement was made possible by the efforts of many people, most of all by the leaders of the political parties involved in the negotiations. The House will, I am sure, wish to join me in also paying tribute to them and to the exceptional chairmanship skills of Senator George Mitchell and his fellow independent Chairmen, former Prime Minister Harri Holkeri and General John de Chastelain.

"No less crucial was the constant support and the direct involvement of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, particularly over the last few crucial days of the negotiations. His efforts were matched by those of the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, who rose above the personal tragedy of his mother's death, to play an equally decisive role. Honourable Members will also appreciate the enormous value of having a broad political consensus in support of the talks process, both here at Westminster and in the Irish Parliament.

"I should like to pay tribute to the work of the right honourable Members for Huntingdon and the Cities of London and Westminster and to the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, and his colleague the right honourable Member for Devizes. Equally, successive Irish Prime Ministers and Ministers for Foreign Affairs in the Republic have played a crucial role over many years. I would also like to thank President Clinton in particular, who has been an invaluable support for the talks process.

"Many other governments and individuals across Europe—especially in the European Union—and throughout the world have given years of their lives in help and support to the search for a lasting peace in Northern Ireland; and their messages of support keep coming in.

"I am laying an order today setting 22nd May as the date for a referendum. A parallel referendum will be held in the Republic of Ireland on the same day. If both are successful, elections should be held to the new Northern Ireland assembly before the end of June.

"Following the election, the assembly and the north-south ministerial council would operate in "shadow" mode, making the necessary preparations, until the main implementing legislation, which I intend to bring forward as soon as possible, has been enacted and brought into effect.

"The agreement reached on Good Friday is a significant turning point in the history of Northern Ireland. But let us have no illusions. It will take a long time to repair the physical and emotional damage of the past and bring about a real sense of reconciliation and partnership. The people there have suffered a great deal of hardship and pain. To their strength we must give all our support in the weeks and months ahead.

"Pressures on all sides will seek to bring this agreement down. The best way we can help to fight those pressures is to give this agreement the overwhelming support of this House; and to give the people of Northern Ireland the chance to choose the future, not the past, in which to live. In the end, the decision rests with the people of Northern Ireland. The choice is theirs".

My Lords, that concludes the Statement.

4.1 p.m.

Lord Cope of Berkeley

My Lords, is the Minister aware that we welcome this agreement? We believe that it provides the basis for a new democratic mechanism for Northern Ireland and that it gives important support to the Union.

I echo the congratulations that have been paid to all those who have been involved in the negotiations and in bringing about this agreement. Senator George Mitchell, Mr. Harri Holkeri and General John de Chastelain have played very important parts with legendary patience. I echo also the tributes that have been paid to successive Prime Ministers, including the present Prime Minister and Mr. John Major, and to successive Secretaries of State, including my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew. All of them, and all the parties concerned, have worked extremely hard to bring about this agreement.

The Minister said that the Government have published the agreement and sent a copy to every household in Northern Ireland. Will they also publish widely a document containing the important letters of interpretation of the agreement which have been sent, we understand, by the Prime Minister to Mr. Trimble and, I think, to Mr. Maginnis and others? Apparently, some of those letters contain important statements about the effect of prisoner releases and other matters and they are crucial to understanding the agreement. The Minister referred to a briefing note being placed in the Library, but I believe that some formal and public document is required if people are to rely on such matters when deciding how to vote in the forthcoming referendum.

We all recognise that the agreement does not yet mean total peace. We hope and pray that some ex-terrorists and their supporters have become democrats, but we know that some others have not. Even if as a result of the agreement they no longer see a political motive for terrorism, there is still a financial motive in the form of the rackets. Therefore, it is not yet time to relax security in Northern Ireland or the rest of the United Kingdom.

Can the Minister make it clear that decommissioning will be an important part of the criteria that will be used to decide which terrorist-supporting organisations have accepted a permanent cease-fire and that only the acceptance of such a cease-fire will allow their representatives to participate in the executive or prisoners belonging to those organisations to benefit from the increased remission? Will the Minister confirm that as long as some terrorist organisations remain active, it is essential that the Royal Ulster Constabulary should remain fully effective and that the Secretary of State should remain responsible for security and answerable to Parliament? Can the Minister further confirm that as long as any of the Armed Forces of the Crown remain in Northern Ireland in support of the civil power, responsibility for security will remain in Whitehall, answerable to Westminster?

Finally, I echo what was said in the Statement by the Secretary of State about the victims. We welcome the work that is being done by Sir Kenneth Bloomfield and look forward to his report being published. I believe that the Minister said that that would happen later this month. Last week while visiting the Province I was reminded that although some of the victims and their families want the prisoners to rot for as long as possible, there are many others for whom the best memorial to their loved ones is that a solution should be found and that others should not have to suffer as they have done.

4.7 p.m.

Lord Holme of Cheltenham

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating the Statement made in another place. This is an extraordinary moment because although there may be trouble ahead—we can certainly assume that there will be serious difficulties in the next weeks and months—nothing can dim the extraordinary nature of this achievement. So often in this House in recent years we have had occasion to bemoan the state of affairs in Northern Ireland, so it is a happy moment to be able to say that Good Friday represents a good agreement.

An agreement which brings together British and Irish leaders in the form of the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach is truly remarkable when one considers the history of the Troubles of the past 25 or 30 years and the much longer history of difficulty between the British and Irish nations. It has been truly remarkable, therefore, to find this degree of unity. I am glad that the Statement remembered the role of the previous administration and the Ministers who served in it. It is right to do so because this achievement relates not only to the past few weeks, but is due also to the efforts made by many people over many years, including previous Secretaries of State. If I have one regret, it is that the Secretary of State prior to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew—I refer to Peter Brooke—was not mentioned in the Statement. His was a remarkable paving role for this achievement.

The role played by the United States in this agreement has been crucial. It is difficult for British and Irish Governments to swallow the fact that the American Administration has played a crucial role, but in recent years the learning curve of the United States about the real nature of the Northern Irish problem has been very steep and very successful. The roles played by the President and by Senator George Mitchell and his co-chairmen have been very great.

We are now in a state of precarious momentum. We must keep up that momentum and reduce the risks. That means that we need the largest possible majority in the referendum—not just in the Republic of Ireland where the agreement is supported by all parties, but in Northern Ireland itself. I am sorry that some distinguished noble Lords from the Cross Benches who normally speak in the Unionist interest are not able to be here this afternoon because their interventions when we last discussed the possibility of an agreement were notably pessimistic. I hope that they will be there, alongside the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, supporting the agreement wholeheartedly.

The question of security thereafter will quickly be upon us. If a referendum in the North and in the South shows high levels of support for the agreement—far higher than the normal majority that we require in a democracy—does the Minister agree that there can then be not the slightest shred of legitimacy or the slightest excuse of fighting a great battle for those who continue to take up arms? Does he agree that once the referendum, north and south, has decided that this is the way forward those who pursue violence must be hunted down, caught and imprisoned and that there can be no excuse for continuing violence?

I slightly regret that in the Statement reference was made to "a deal". It is important to turn that into genuine dialogue. This is a beginning; it offers no more than the possibility of a new start. It means that the unionists and nationalists of Northern Ireland, particularly those who pursue the peaceful constitutional path like the SDLP and Ulster Unionists, must turn the heroic effort of overnight negotiation into a continuing dialogue to underpin a peaceful future for Northern Ireland.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Cope, I ask the Minister to clarify the exact nature of the understanding given to Mr. David Trimble about the prohibition on the involvement of parties who have not eschewed violence and started substantially to decommission in the process of the assembly and government. I should like to understand exactly what that is. Like the noble Lord, Lord Cope, if there are letters in existence I should like them to be published.

Finally, the basis of the settlement, not merely the fact that it has been arrived at, of devolved powers so that greater self-government and responsibility can be undertaken in Northern Ireland—shared power so that decisions are not exercised on behalf of one side of the community and proportional representation so that all shades of opinion are fairly represented, with the emphasis on human rights—is part of the general constitutional revolution that the Government, with the support of these Benches, have taken forward in Great Britain as a whole. I believe that of all parts of the United Kingdom it has the greatest relevance in Northern Ireland, and in that sense we support it most warmly.

I do not want to sit down without referring, among those who have made a contribution, to my noble friend Lord Alderdice, the leader of the Alliance Party, who is not able to be here this afternoon. Noble Lords will recognise that to assume that in Northern Ireland there are only two sides does not do justice to those who look for a non-sectarian basis for progress in the Province.

4.13 p.m.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cope, for his support and welcome for this particular agreement. He asked whether the correspondence that had taken place between the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister and various Northern Ireland politicians could be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Essentially, these exchanges were private communications between participants in the process. It would not be normal practice to place such correspondence in the Libraries. However, some of the contents of the correspondence has already been made public and there has been much public comment and discussion upon it. Therefore, we shall look sympathetically at the request to see what can be done to meet the point raised by the noble Lord.

The noble Lord asked about matters concerning the cease-fire and decommissioning. We want to see total decommissioning as quickly as possible. We welcome the commitment in the agreement by talks participants to use their influence to achieve this in two years. The agreement represents a package. I argue strongly that all the elements of that package are closely interlinked. The onus is on the participants—the two governments, the parties, unionists, loyalists, nationalists and republicans—to implement all aspects of the agreement in good faith. The agreement cannot work unless all of the participants act in good faith and give effect to the undertakings that they have provided. We see that as a complete package, and we wish the matter to be judged as a whole.

At the present time policing and security matters will remain under the Secretary of State. Other than in the very short term, there will be a change in such arrangements, only if the security situation justifies such a change. But we have not reached that position yet because, regrettably, there are a number of terrorist organisations on both sides which have not subscribed to the cease-fire and still practise violence and murder. Therefore we have to keep the security forces on the alert to deal with such a threat. The Secretary of State will retain her full responsibilities in these circumstances.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Holme, for his support. Perhaps I was not very clear in what I said earlier. I repeat my comments relating to Mr. Peter Brooke: I should like to pay tribute to the work of the right honourable Members for Huntingdon and the Cities of London and Westminster". If that was not clear I apologise. Certainly, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State wanted to pay tribute to Mr. Peter Brooke, and other Secretaries of State who played such an important part in getting us to the present position.

The noble Lord asked a number of other questions. I very much agree with him that this is just the start and a good deal of hard work must still be done. The Government are not sitting back on the basis that they have done it. Only this morning my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said that there was a great deal of work still to be done and the real challenges to take forward the process begin now. The noble Lord also asked about violence and decommissioning. The assembly is for those parties who have taken part in the agreement and have subscribed to peace and consent. I believe that the agreement makes clear that the test must be that the parties continue to believe in a peaceful way forward. I have already referred to decommissioning and the desire of the Government to see this matter as a complete package.

I also join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I am very much aware, both from his contributions here and on the occasions that I have met him in Northern Ireland, that he has also played a very important part for the good in the politics of the Province and should be thanked for his contribution to the achievement of the successful agreement on the afternoon of Good Friday. I believe that I have dealt with all of the main questions put to me by the noble Lord. If not, I shall write to him.

4.17 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, over centuries many dramatic statements have been made in this House in relation to the conduct of various affairs. Normally, those statements are made amidst great controversy. A painting in a corridor of this House records the famous rejection of the Home Rule Bill in 1893. Had the outcome been different we might not have had to suffer many of the events in the years that have followed.

I believe that it may be a little premature to refer to this agreement as a settlement. It is not. One can only hope daily that it will become a settlement. In the House of Commons today I observed that the Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party, Mr. David Trimble, sat alone on his Bench without the support of his parliamentary colleagues. I believe that that must be regarded as being as serious as it looks. There is not agreement even among the major political parties in Northern Ireland.

I believe that it is time for everyone who is concerned with Northern Ireland to state where they stand on the agreement. I have no hesitation in saying that I fully support the agreement. I call on anyone in Northern Ireland who has listened to my voice over the years to vote "yes" in the referendum. It is the only possible way; there is no alternative.

I should like to place firmly on record—perhaps to the total disagreement of some of my former colleagues—my support for the RUC. Had it not been for the RUC over the past 30 years Northern Ireland would have descended into absolute anarchy. It is only by the dedicated service of those policemen that there has been a civilised outcome to the events of the past few years. This agreement is only the beginning. There are many people in Northern Ireland, including myself, who are very concerned about the possible early release of convicted prisoners. I refer particularly to those who have lost their fathers, mothers, friends and colleagues.

Will continuing representations be made to the IRA, a terrorist organisation, to do what it can to make public the burial grounds of those people it murdered from within the Catholic community and whose bodies are, as yet, unidentified? There is great sadness and sorrow among those who have lost their loved ones and who cannot visit their graves.

The Minister is entitled to ask for the support of all elected representatives. I wish him well in all his efforts, and the efforts of everyone else in Northern Ireland, to bring about a massive yes vote in the referendum.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support for the agreement. The House knows of the enormously important role that he has played over many years in seeking to move Northern Ireland away from violence and towards peace and reconciliation. That is appreciated by the whole of the House and by many, many people in Northern Ireland.

Noble Lords

Hear, hear!

Lord Dubs

My Lords, yes, it is an agreement. It is not yet a settlement and we have to make further progress. I thank the noble Lord for urging people to vote yes in the referendum.

I would also thank him for voicing his support for the RUC. I endorse what he has said. The RUC has played a brave and difficult part in the most appalling circumstances over the past 25 or 30 years. Many members of the RUC have lost their lives doing their duty of protecting the whole of the people of Northern Ireland. We owe them a great debt.

I appreciate the difficulties about early release of prisoners. The Secretary of State is fully aware of the difficulties there will be in moving forward in such a way that ensures that victims retain a sense that justice has been done.

I take particularly to heart the comment made by the noble Lord that we must see what pressure we can exert to identify the burial places of people who have been murdered by terrorists, the locations of which are not known. These should be located in order to give the relatives some sense of ease—which is all one can give them, other than a sense that there may be a long-term peace for Northern Ireland.

Baroness Park of Monmouth

My Lords, decommissioning is a vital issue and I would ask the Minister for certain clarifications.

The agreement says that the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning and the governments have been developing schemes which can represent a workable basis for achieving the decommissioning. It goes on: Both governments will take any necessary steps to facilitate the decommissioning process to include bringing the relevant schemes into force by the end of June". It will be very difficult for people to vote in full knowledge of what is to happen if they do not know, at least in rough outline, the content of those schemes. It may be published somewhere, but I do not remember having seen a clear statement of what the intention is in terms of the actual working of the decommissioning process.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, we had a debate on an order here some while ago which put in place a scheme for decommissioning. In order to facilitate the process of the handing-in of arms—weapons, guns, bombs—those handing them in will have to be exempt from criminal charges, otherwise they will not hand them in. That is difficult. At the same time, where arms are not being handed in, the Army and the RUC will be busy hunting down all people who have illegal weapons. We have in place a scheme for the decommissioning body to receive weapons, either by arms being handed over directly or by tip-offs as to where they are located.

It is important that weapons should not be used. At the moment the real test of these initiatives is that there will be proper peace and that none of the paramilitary bodies, who in the past or at present have an association with any of the parties taking part in the talks, will ever use their weapons again.

Then we have to see how quickly we can achieve decommissioning. The Government want to see decommissioning as soon as possible and we are putting in place all the necessary legislative measures as a matter of urgency. We welcome the fact that all the participants have made a commitment to use their influence to achieve decommissioning within two years. We expect all of the parties that have arms to honour the commitment they have made and to ensure that decommissioning takes place.

Baroness Park of Monmouth

My Lords, does the ordinary public in Northern Ireland know how it is going to operate?

Lord Dubs

My Lords, there has been a lot of publicity in Northern Ireland about all this. I take the point of the noble Baroness. I will consider with my ministerial colleagues whether there are ways in which we can publicise these arrangements more fully than they have been.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I join with other noble Lords in thanking all those who have participated over a vast number of years in trying to cope with the terrible problem of Northern Ireland and peace in Ireland. I thank all those who have been engaged in seeking to find an agreement over the past few nights and weeks.

The decommissioning of arms is one of the most important aspects of the way forward for the agreement. A commission has been established and from time to time it will be dealing with the decommissioning of arms. Are any arrangements yet agreed for the frequency of reporting of the surrender of arms? In order to gain the confidence of the people it is important that they should realise that this is an on-going situation. It is no use waiting for two years for them to find out. If some surrender of arms were to be announced next week, that would be a great way forward for peace.

Will the commission be making statements to Parliament through the Minister for Northern Ireland or will the commission report frequently to press conferences? It is important that Parliament is aware of this, but it is more important that the people of Northern Ireland, Ireland as a whole and the whole of the British Isles, know about the frequency, amount and from where arms are surrendered. If that were announced they would feel that something was being achieved.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support for the agreement. As to his specific question, he is absolutely right that confidence will be significantly enhanced in Northern Ireland when we are able to give positive news about successful decommissioning taking place. I assure the noble Lord that we will ensure that any such good news on decommissioning will be communicated to the people of Northern Ireland as soon as it happens. I hope that we will be able to do that before too long.

Earl Russell

My Lords, I join in the warm welcome and cautious optimism. Will the Minister agree that two changes in mainland Britain have contributed to this agreement? One has been a fundamental change in the attitude taken on this side of the water to Roman Catholics. We understand now that we are a country which was divided by the Reformation and that we have a Catholic heritage as well as a Protestant one. We can take pride in both. Allegiance to the Union Jack is something far wider than allegiance to a Protestant cause.

The other change, as the references to the European Convention on Human Rights in the Statement have illustrated, is that we are far less enthusiastic about the sterile majoritarian view that the winner takes all. In the circumstances, is it now clear that loyalism must be loyalism to the pluralist, diverse Britain of Queen Elizabeth II and not to the mythological Protestant England presided over by King Billy?

4.30 p.m.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I am tempted to ask how I begin to answer that. I think that the noble Earl is taking advantage of me and the House in what might be an animate version through the paths of British history. Let me say to him that of course we are seeking in Northern Ireland to achieve the positive relationship between Catholics and Protestants and people of all other faiths, or of none, that we have had for a long time in most parts, if not all parts, of Britain. It is proper that the relationship which we have here should be extended to Northern Ireland. I hope that the agreement will play its part in helping to achieve that. I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I do not pursue the history of religion in this country over the past few hundred years.

As regards human rights matters and the intention of the Government to bring the European Convention into law here, of which the noble Lord is aware, I do not see that as a matter of majoritarianism; I see it as a matter of establishing the rights of all individuals. All individuals should have rights and the law is there to protect them whether they live in Britain or Northern Ireland.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield

My Lords, I assure the Minister that mine will be a practical and pragmatic statement. Furthermore, I assure the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that what he is talking about is, in fact, actually taking place in Northern Ireland. The news covers the extremes but there is already much integration and pluralism.

I would like to add my congratulations to those who brought forward the agreement on Good Friday, and in particular to the Secretary of State and her colleagues. Anyone who has worked in Northern Ireland will understand that many people in the Province do not believe anything that a British Government Minister says, which makes it twice as hard to bring things forward.

I should also like to point out—and I suspect that it will be left to me to point out—this is the first time that we have had women at the negotiating table. It is difficult to identify their contribution as such, but it must be a step forward. I should like also to praise those who had not previously taken part in negotiations. They have kept their feet on the ground, and even this Friday they had to point out that the future of the people of Northern Ireland was no laughing matter. With people like that participating, the future was bright.

In addition to the praise for the RUC, I praise the Army. Every time the going gets tough we are required to bring back military support, taking soldiers away from their families and putting them into a situation which is always fraught. Without them there would have been more deaths. I worry about the fact that, because politics was at the top of the agenda, it was said of the last death in Belfast, "Not to worry too much. It was probably non-sectarian". There is a great danger that we worry only about sectarian activities and not about living and quality of life in Northern Ireland.

I have two specific questions for the Minister. The agreement contains many cross-border bodies serviced by officials. Such bodies inevitably cost money. No one has said where the money is coming from. Can the Minister assure me that it will not come from areas of need such as health and education or from economic support? Secondly, while a visit from President Clinton may be desirable—though not everyone thinks so and certainly not before the referendum—would it not be more practical if the President turned his support to encouraging more funds from the IFI in order to bring together industrialists who would look at inward investment and support for the Springvale complex which the Secretary of State announced last week?

Lord Dubs

My Lords, may I say to the noble Baroness that I am delighted she is in excellent voice. I know that she established a very good reputation in Northern Ireland over the many years that she has served there so well and effectively. Whatever else may be said about any other British Minister, I know that the people of Northern Ireland always believed what she said to them. Certainly, that is what they are telling me now. It is a privilege for me to be able to follow in her footsteps, at least as far as her agricultural responsibilities were concerned. I am also grateful to the noble Baroness for the tribute she paid to the Secretary of State and other members of the ministerial team.

I welcome her comment that it is the first time that women have played a prominent part in such negotiations in Northern Ireland during many years. That is another first, and I thank her for drawing attention to it.

I am also grateful to her for the tribute she paid to the Army. We talked about the RUC earlier. The Army has also played its part in very difficult circumstances. Young soldiers have been faced with dangers to themselves and threats to their lives. Sadly, a number of members of the Army and other British troops have lost their lives in the troubles in Northern Ireland. I take her point that if a murder is not sectarian it is still a murder. Simply to dismiss a murder by saying, "It isn't sectarian, that's all right then" is not acceptable. We must have a society where murder of any kind is completely unacceptable, and murder is murder.

I take the noble Baroness's point about the support we have had from the United States for many years and from President Clinton in recent years. I do not know whether he will pay a visit and if so when, but certainly any support that the American Government are able to give us through the International Fund for Ireland, or by encouraging investment into Northern Ireland, would be most welcome. That would play a very large part in helping to reduce unemployment and to bed down the peace process more firmly.

The noble Baroness also asked about money for the cross-border activities and implementation bodies. I cannot say at this stage just where that money will come from, but as a Government, we have made a commitment that health and education are our priorities and we will not cut health and education in order to achieve that. We shall have to find the money from somewhere else, not from health and education.

Lord Mason of Barnsley

My Lords, I should like to add my congratulations to everyone who has paid tribute to the establishing of this historic agreement. Is the Minister aware that with such vast constitutional changes—for instance, a Northern Ireland assembly; a North/South ministerial council; a British/Irish council; and a British/Irish intergovernmental conference followed by reviews and commissions on the future of the RUC, of prisoners, of decommissioning, of human rights and so forth—the size of the task ahead will be enormous? We have always said that if there were to be a change it would be by the consent of the majority of the people. I am pleased that that is included in the deal. That has always been the guiding principle and, therefore, in the referendum the people of Ireland will now be determining their destiny.

The Minister is aware of the many issues that have been raised. I shall cover them briefly because I am concerned with matters that will arise for consideration before the referendum takes place. I refer to the future of the RUC; the premature release of terrorist killers; decommissioning, especially those dissident forces outside the deal; and continuity of the IRA, the Irish National Liberation Army and the Ulster Loyalist Forces. Many assurances have to be given on these questions which are still to be answered before the referendum. I hope that the Minister and his group within the Province will be able to give all the assurances necessary in order to get this referendum through.

Lord Dubs

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support. I know that he speaks on the basis of long experience as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, and he is well remembered there.

It is certainly the case that these are immense changes. It will be a difficult task to ensure that they are implemented and that the process continues at a good pace. I also agree with him that there are a number of difficult issues. Some of them will be the subject of legislation which will be laid before this House in the near future when there will be a chance to discuss them in detail. But it is right that not only the House but also the people in Northern Ireland should be fully aware of all the details so that they can make the most informed possible decision when they come to vote in both the referendum and, it is to be hoped, in the subsequent elections.