HL Deb 28 October 1997 vol 582 cc971-3

2.48 p.m.

Lord Merrivaleasked Her Majesty's Government:

What support they will seek, jointly with the Government of Gibraltar, from appropriate European Union governments towards the settlement of the future constitutional status of Gibraltar.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, any change in Gibraltar's constitution would of course be a matter for Her Majesty's Government and for the Government of Gibraltar. However, we seek to ensure that our European partners are aware of our policy and position on Gibraltar.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. Does he agree that the support of certain European Union governments for joint UK/Gibraltar decolonisation proposals would carry weight in talks with the Spanish Government?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, we have always pursued this matter together with the Gibraltar Government. Clearly the Spanish dimension of these problems is an important one and arises from time to time in European discussions. However, we do not think it is a sensible move to establish a counterbalance to Spain within the European set-up. We want to do a deal with the Government of Gibraltar and then cover the Spanish dimension on a bilateral basis.

Lord Shepherd

My Lords, the Minister referred to doing a deal. Will the noble Lord confirm that the protocol preamble to the Act which set up the constitution of Gibraltar will not be touched in any respect without the consent of the people of Gibraltar?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, that is absolutely the position. I said "do a deal" with the Gibraltar Government about any change in the constitution. We would not allow the people of Gibraltar to pass into any different constitutional state without their consent. That protocol in the 1969 constitution will be utterly upheld.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire

My Lords, what difficulties does the Minister anticipate from the Treaty of Amsterdam and the commitment to freedom of movement given that Britain has asked for the right to opt in to various aspects of the Schengen agreement and it will be a matter of unanimous votes as to whether Britain is allowed to opt in or out? The Spanish Government and the Gibraltar issue will no doubt have some relevance as regards that.

Lord Whitty

My Lords, there are two aspects. Contrary to some opinions expressed in Gibraltar and elsewhere, the Treaty of Amsterdam does not affect the right of Gibraltarians to free movement within the European Union, including across the border with Spain. Those rights are enshrined in the treaty and have in no way been changed by Amsterdam.

In relation to opting-in in the future to aspects of Schengen, while those matters are subject to unanimity from our partners any decision to exclude Britain or Ireland from opting-in to the Schengen provisions would be based on a Commission opinion and would be unlikely to be vetoed by any individual member state. Its direct effect on Gibraltar is therefore extremely remote. The treaty does not in any sense alter the rights of the people of Gibraltar.

Lord Moynihan

My Lords, is it still the firm position of the Government to use the British veto at the December ministerial meetings to block Spain's integration into NATO's military command structure unless the current Spanish restrictions on the movement of military aircraft in and out of Gibraltar are dropped?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the discussions are continuing within NATO as they were at the Madrid Summit, and will continue bilaterally with Spain and within NATO. To use the term "veto" in NATO circumstances is not normal. We would hope that an agreement could be reached on that; certainly that would be our intention. But our position has been made absolutely clear in relation to any Spanish encroachment on the sovereignty of the territory of Gibraltar.

Lord Chesham

My Lords, will the Minister give us some idea as to when a constitutional conference may take place on Gibraltar?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, as I understand it, the Gibraltar Government are making proposals. We have not yet received those proposals; they are not yet finalised. We do not envisage a conference in the sense to which the noble Lord refers. However, we shall consider seriously the initiative taken by the Government of Gibraltar. There are certain limits on the options in both the Treaty of Utrecht and the existing constitution.

Lord Merrivale

My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government view favourably a formula which would give Gibraltar a similar status to that of the Channel Islands?

Lord Whitty

My Lords, the Government do not consider it helpful to talk of alternative models. Every territory is different. I repeat that we shall consider the proposals of the Government of Gibraltar when they are ready.