HL Deb 19 November 1997 vol 583 cc569-70

3.6 p.m.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil asked Her Majesty's Government:

What steps they will take to ensure that, when a charity is obliged to seek the guidance of the court and the Attorney-General intervenes, the costs are kept to a minimum and the case is disposed of with the least possible delay.

The Solicitor-General (Lord Falconer of Thoroton)

My Lords, the Attorney-General is generally a necessary party in charity cases and represents the Crown as protector of charity. The Attorney-General aims always to keep down costs and eliminate delay by helping the court and the parties to address the relevant issues in a case, and he shares the noble Lord's objectives in that regard. The duties of charity trustees are important and often onerous and I would pay tribute to those, like the noble Lord, who give their time to such causes.

Lord Peyton of Yeovil

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that the Question stems not so much from personal interest as from experience as a trustee in one case where the costs involved and time spent seemed to be far more than was reasonable. Is the noble and learned Lord prepared to examine matters and so to arrange them that much of the ground can be covered effectively before the case ever comes to court, without the involvement of counsel, so that the high costs and long duration of time are avoided?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I am aware of the case to which the noble Lord refers. I have looked into the case and have discussed it with him. As I said, I share his concerns. In the Attorney-General's office we are particularly acute to avoid both time and costs being wasted because we are aware that all costs spent in relation to these matters are costs effectively taken away from the charity. However, the use of counsel by the Attorney-General's chambers will often reduce the time spent in court, because counsel will be able to reduce the issues, thereby reducing the time. That is our aim.

Lord Clark of Kempston

My Lords, does the Minister agree that charities depend on voluntary contributions, which saves the Exchequer a certain amount of money? Would it not be a good idea to consider extending legal aid to charities, rather than wasting taxpayers' money on bogus asylum seekers and foreigners who come over here and exploit the legal aid system?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, I should not dream of suggesting that we extend the legal aid system to anything at the moment, particularly in the presence of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor. As regards inappropriate applications and grants for legal aid, I am confident that the Lord Chancellor has that in mind.

Lord Renton

My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that when the Attorney-General appears in charity cases he is what lawyers would call amicus curiae—a friend of the court—and that therefore he frequently does not charge for his services? Should he not always decide not to charge for his services, bearing in mind the capacity in which he appears?

Lord Falconer of Thoroton

My Lords, when the Attorney-General appears in charity cases he normally appears on behalf of the beneficial interests of the charity. It would be quite wrong for the Attorney-General in relation to what he does not to receive some payment out of the charitable funds, I am afraid. However, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, the Attorney-General is concerned as much as possible to ensure that he is not in court spending money when it is inappropriate as regards the charity.