§ 3.23 p.m.
§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What are the gross migration figures between Scotland and other parts of the United Kingdom for the past 10 years, or for the most recent comparable period for which figures are available.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sewel)My Lords, between mid-1986 and mid-1996, it is estimated that 527,000 890 people moved from Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the gross out-migration figure from Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom.
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer and at the same time perhaps I may congratulate him on his appointment as a Minister within the Scottish Office. I am sure that he will recognise the sincerity of my congratulations when I set them in the context that it is the policy of his Government to remove him from that remit and, indeed, to take the portfolio away entirely from this Parliament. I am sure that we all wish him a long and successful tenure in that position.
The noble Lord has had a distinguished academic career. Does he recognise that the gross figure that he has given of over 500,000 people reveals some very significant ebbs and flows of people moving from Scotland to other parts of the United Kingdom? Does it not give him a moment's unease that in pursuit of consultation of the Scottish people, as the Prime Minister determined it, the only people who are to be consulted are those who were resident in Scotland on 1st October not of this year but of 1996?
§ Lord SewelMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his kind words. I look forward to a very short career in the Scottish Office. I also congratulate him on the ingenuity of his supplementary question. The test of who should vote in a consultative referendum is clearly based on residency and not on any idea of ethnicity. If the noble Lord reflects, I am sure he will agree that it would be extremely bad practice to have a test of ethnicity entering into a view about who should participate in electoral politics.
Lord RentonMy Lords, do not the figures which the noble Lord has given confirm the advice given by Dr. Johnson that the finest prospect that the Scotsman ever sees is the high road to England? Is the Minister aware that many Scots still accept that advice, including those who come to the English Bar and become High Court judges? Indeed, one of them has become a famous noble and learned Lord Chancellor.
§ Lord SewelMy Lords, I say nothing about what happens to Scots lawyers—it usually costs me money! I have to observe that although 527,000 people may have moved from Scotland to the rest of the United Kingdom, 536,000 moved from the rest of the United Kingdom to Scotland.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, is it not a fact that the figures for migration show the necessity for a centre of power in Scotland which will ensure that people will stay there and make Scotland prosper instead of England?
§ Lord SewelMy Lords, we always seek to retain our best.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, I believe that the statistics produced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, demonstrate beyond peradventure the weakness of English management which has gone on for 300 years or so. I would like to urge—
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, I ask my noble friend on the Front Bench whether he would like to be urged to consider the circumstances of such a person as myself—who, although of the pure blood, has lived in England to the advantage of that peninsula to the south of the mainland for 40 years or so—taking part in the referendum? I do not wish to ask him to look up Hansard so that he may see the speech that I made on the subject in this House 19 years ago.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, I believe that very serious consideration should be given to Scots of the first generation living in England, and no other part of the world, taking part in this very important matter—
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, you may shout and yell. I welcome the referendum and the consequences of it.
§ Lord SewelMy Lords, perhaps I may tell the noble Lord that I have many urges that come over me from time to time and I do not require any more. I give one simple piece of advice to him and that is to return to Scotland, to be resident there and vote.