HL Deb 28 February 1997 vol 578 cc1463-6

2.18 p.m.

The Earl of Courtown rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 20th January be approved [13th Report from the Deregulation Committee].

The noble Earl said: My Lords, this order, which has been scrutinised by the parliamentary scrutiny committees of both Houses, amends the Liquor Licensing Act 1964 and the Gaming Act 1968 as follows. First, it allows casinos in England and Wales to apply for special hours certificates to enable them to serve alcohol up to 3 a.m. in London and 2 a.m. elsewhere; and, secondly, it reduces the waiting period before new members may game in a casino from 48 hours to 24 hours.

I will briefly explain the two changes. At present, casinos in England and Wales are not permitted to serve alcohol beyond midnight, although they may open until 4 a.m. That is because the Liquor Licensing Act 1964 allows licence extensions beyond midnight only for establishments offering live entertainment. Under the gaming legislation, casinos are prohibited from providing live entertainment. There are no plans to change this because entertainment could stimulate the demand for casino gambling.

Therefore the order allows casinos to apply for special hours certificates in the same way as other late night establishments, such as night-clubs. We do not expect this change to cause any problems. Casinos in Scotland have had extended liquor licensing hours since 1976 without any difficulties. As is the rule now, players will not be allowed to take alcohol onto the gaming floor. This merely allows casinos to offer the facilities which people expect to find in a late night establishment.

I now turn to the relaxation regarding the membership rule. Casinos in this country are subject to a strict regulatory regime. Many people have quite the wrong impression of what they are like, mainly because few people have been inside them. They are not at all like the casinos in Las Vegas with their rows of slot machines and cabaret acts. They are discreet establishments which provide mainly table and card games. Casinos here are not allowed to advertise and they are required to operate as members' clubs. You cannot walk off the street into a casino as you could into a night club, and they are closely supervised by the Gaming Board's inspectors.

The strict regime for casinos will remain, as they are places for hard gaming, but it is appropriate to relax slightly the rules on membership, reducing the waiting period from 48 hours to 24 hours.

At present if someone wants to game in a casino and they are not already a member or a guest of a member they have to apply for membership at the casino and wait 48 hours before they can participate in the gaming. This can mean that casinos, especially those in London, lose custom from tourists. The Government do not intend to change the club status of casinos but we have agreed that it would be reasonable for the waiting period to be reduced to 24 hours.

Both these changes have been the subject of extensive consultation and have the support of the Gaming Board, the Magistrates' Association and the police.

The Deregulation Committee in another place and the Delegated Powers Scrutiny Committee have unanimously recommended that the order is in a form satisfactory to be submitted to the House for affirmative resolution. The order provides sensible relaxation to rules on casinos. I am grateful—I hope—for noble Lords' support. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 20th January be approved [13th Report from the Deregulation Committed—(The Earl of Courtown.)

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, gaming is a euphemism; the word is "gambling". I can say that because gambling is the only vice that I do not have. I have never been inside a casino in this country although I have been to casinos in Las Vegas, to which the noble Earl referred. I am a little puzzled about the need for an extension of a licence to sell alcohol. Casinos in Las Vegas at any rate offer free drinks, including alcoholic drinks, in order that people can indulge their vice for gambling and to keep them doing so. Indeed, they offer food and sometimes free accommodation—

Lord Graham of Edmonton

Where is this?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

It is in Las Vegas. If my noble friend Lord Graham wants to visit he can confirm the truth of what I say. Is the noble Earl saying it is necessary for casinos in this country to sell alcohol to the punters? I am surprised. Seriously, the law is a nonsense as it stands. Not being able to sell alcohol after midnight unless one provides live entertainment, and not being able to provide live entertainment if the establishment is a casino, is the classic case of catch-22. It is desirable that it should be removed by this order and we support it.

The Viscount of Falkland

My Lords, I am sure the order is fine but I am puzzled. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, I had a misspent youth and quite often visited casinos and betting shops. On every occasion when I speak in your Lordships' House and express surprise at the vision that is painted of these places, I am treated in a certain way. On one occasion I was described as "the dotty Peer" by one newspaper. I do not mind being called a dotty Peer as regards other areas, but in the area of casinos and betting shops, which I understand, I should like to think I am not dotty.

When I am told that entertainment stimulates gambling more than drink, I wonder where the architects of this measure have lived their lives. The only reason I am here now and not a bankrupt is probably because I did not drink when I gambled. If there had been more entertainment, perhaps I would have more money in my pocket now. As usual on gambling subjects—the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh, is right; we are talking about gambling—I am absolutely mystified about the thought processes underlying the measure.

Gambling in this country seems now to have gone beyond the old public policy of discouragement. In order to get the lottery through, we had to pretend that there was no public policy to discourage gambling—or what the noble Earl refers to as gaming. But matters have now changed. All that is required is sensible regulation of these places. By and large I think that betting shops are now reasonable places, although perhaps lacking bunches of flowers and groups of children happily gambolling, or gaming, about while their parents bet. Neither are casinos salubrious places where foregather the kind of people one would like to meet one's mother. However, since we have these places let us hope that the Government regulate them properly. But there is a lot of nonsense going on, is there not?

The Earl of Courtown

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, I have never been into a casino in this country. Therefore I have learned about them second hand. As regards drink and the selling of alcohol, premises can and do sell alcohol up to 12 o'clock; and a special hours certificate enables them to sell it up to three o'clock. I understand that drinks cannot be served at the table. People have to move away from the gambling tables to drink.

The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, was concerned as to whether live entertainment would encourage or discourage people. He will correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps he will remind me of the point.

The Viscount of Falkland

My Lords, I am delighted to continue along this line. I shall grasp any opportunity. I am saying that if you are gambling, whether playing blackjack, roulette or standing in a betting shop looking at the runners, if someone entertains you it will take you away from that form of betting for a while. Therefore I should have thought that entertainment is a good thing. If you drink while playing any gambling game, whether a respectable club game such as backgammon or poker, or in a casino, you get further into the world of unreality which is, after all, what is behind gambling. You are likely to lose everything you have, and more.

The Earl of Courtown

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for repeating his comments. Casinos in this country are some of the most heavily regulated in Europe, if not in the world. They are generally, I think almost wholly, well run establishments. I do not think that the picture of people behaving badly or getting out of control is valid.

The Viscount of Falkland

My Lords, the noble Earl is most courteous in giving way. I did not wish to imply that that was the case. I said that what encourages or discourages gambling seems slightly out of focus in the reasoning underlying the order. People who run betting shops and gambling places are probably paragons of virtue. I do not go to them nowadays.

The Earl of Courtown

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for the explanation and thank noble Lords for their support. I commend the order.

On Question, Motion agreed to.