Scottish Select Committees (Hansard, 25 February 1997)

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that detailed reply. Does he agree that the new procedure which is applicable so far to three Scottish public Bills has been successful? It enabled direct links to be created between selected Members of your Lordships' House and members in Scotland who are concerned with the details of the Bills as they arise. Will my noble friend further agree that this form of practical devolution is infinitely to be preferred both as to price and as to efficiency rather than some form of proposed parliamentary devolution?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I agree with the suggestion of my noble friend. I was heartened by the support of the Opposition parties, after understandable caution, which is only right and proper, when this experiment was first tried. I agree that it has been extremely successful in making sure that people who were particularly interested in the proposed legislation were given a chance to give evidence in Scotland. In parallel with the initiatives of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, it brought Parliament closer to the Scottish people. The experiment has proved good value in the sense that the costs have varied between £7,000 and £11,000. I agree also that the experiment ensured that it is one Parliament that has been brought closer to the people rather than breaking up the United Kingdom with several.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, I sat on two of those committees. Does the noble Viscount agree that the knowledge acquired by the members of those committees probably saved parliamentary time at later stages in the Bill? The Deer (Scotland) Bill and the Transfer of Crofting Estates (Scotland) Bill were specialised subjects and the knowledge acquired of the subjects probably enabled Members of the Committee and the House to concentrate their amendments and thereby take up less parliamentary time at later stages.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I agree with the implication of the noble Lady's question that better prepared legislation is likely to enter into a virtuous circle in the legislative process. The more that consultation can take place, the better. I am sure that the Select Committees played their part in that, just as other government initiatives—for example, the increased publication of Bills drafted in advance—have helped in the same direction, though the steps so far have been only modest ones.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite much trouble being taken by 1037 a large number of groups and individuals to give evidence on the three Bills that have so far been scrutinised in that way, there has been scant reporting by the Scottish media? Is there any way that the House itself could make it clearer to the public when and where the special Scottish Select Committees are meeting and what they are about? Perhaps also reports could be published afterwards containing the gist of the business that was contracted.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am distressed to hear from my noble friend that the coverage in the Scottish press was rather exiguous. I equally deplore the lack of coverage of proceedings in your Lordships' House we so often receive in the national press. In that respect I hope that the appointment of a new senior information officer—I am glad to say it was approved by all sides of the House—will begin to make some impact on the amount of press coverage that takes place. Nonetheless, I am reliably informed that in relation to the Transfer of Crofting Estates (Scotland) Bill there was considerable coverage on Scottish television and in the press. Specific interests were served, in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Macaulay of Bragar, who I understood was able to inform the inhabitants of the Isle of Skye of the contents of the Bill in Gaelic.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that we regard this experiment as having been a modest success? We would be content for it to continue, provided it is done on a pragmatic, practical basis and in respect of one Bill at a time. However, if the Leader of the House really believes that going up to Inverness to look at the deer and going to Skye in order to consult the crofters is any substitute for the legitimate aspirations for devolution of the Scottish people, frankly, he is crazy.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Richard, knows as well as I do that I never claimed more than a modest ambition when I suggested this device to your Lordships. He knows that that ambition, in his opinion as well as mine, has been satisfied. We will continue to choose, through the usual channels and by mutual agreement as is the way of this House, which Bills would be appropriate for that procedure. I am tempted to go down the road the noble Lord asks me to go down. I merely remind him that one of the difficulties that I suspect his party and the leader of his party will suffer from perennially on this subject as well as others is that they fail—I use the phrase used by Mr. Blair in the John Smith Lecture advisedly—to get stuck into the thickets of detail and that is where the devil always lies in their proposals.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the new extended system of Scottish parliamentary committees is an effective constitutional improvement? The development has produced the only advances in the past 23 years since the Royal Commission reported on the constitution. Nothing 1038 whatever was done and no steps were taken during the period of a Labour Government when their previous devolution scheme collapsed totally at a referendum.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, as a distinguished former Secretary of State for Scotland, my noble friend can yield to no one in his knowledge and experience of these affairs. Reverting to the remarks of my noble friend Lady Elles about cost, I am told that the latest estimate in sterling terms of the cost of what is proposed for what will unquestionably be an ill-thought-out attempt at a Scottish parliament which will split up the United Kingdom is £70 million. That seems an awful lot of money to spend on an experiment that is doomed to failure for the very reasons my noble friend gives.

§ Lord Sewel
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that at least on one occasion in one of the Bills the weight of Scottish opinion as collected through the evidence obtained by the Select Committee was not reflected in the final shape and content of the Bill, thus underlining the need for a Scottish parliament to make Scottish legislation more responsive to and representative of Scottish opinion?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the fact that evidence is collected and the issues are aired by this device will inform the proper procedures of this House when it comes to scrutinise legislation in its remaining stages. It is for your Lordships' House to decide, in the light of that and other information, how it wishes to proceed. I certainly do not think that this is any more ambitious in its aims than the noble Lord, Lord Richard, made out a moment ago.