Organic Farming (Hansard, 25 February 1997)

Lord Lucas
My Lords, our policies are designed to encourage a soundly based, not subsidy driven, organic farming industry. We have no plans at present to increase organic aid scheme payments, but we have recently launched the organic conversion information service which offers a telephone helpline and free advisory visits. We also spend £1 million a year on research into the economic and practical aspects of organic farming.

The Earl of Clanwilliam
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that interesting reply. He suggests that he is interested in organic farming, which is not subsidised. May I introduce him to something called the 1034 common agricultural policy, which is responsible for enormous subsidies to foreign producers of organic foods? They are responsible for imports of £260 million-worth of organic produce a year, of which £180 million-worth is from CAP-supported European Union states. Does not that imbalance of trade compare terribly with the organic aid scheme, which produces a paltry £1 million spread over five years?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, my noble friend underestimates the value of the organic aid scheme, which runs at about £1 million a year at present. Certainly, subsidies by our continental neighbours are much higher than our own—of the order of two to three times higher. But we do not see the need to enter into a competition on subsidies. There appear to be quite enough subsidies to agriculture at the moment without adding to them needlessly. It would only result in a weak and vulnerable organic farming industry if we were to water and fertilize it too heavily at this stage.

§ Lord Beaumont of Whitley
My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that organic farming reduces the energy used on the land to the benefit of the environment and increases the labour used on the land to the benefit of the community? For both those reasons, does he agree that it would be a good thing for the OAS to be as fully funded as our competitors in the rest of Europe?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about some of the benefits of organic farming. Indeed, it has many good environmental spin-offs. But I still do not see that as a reason for subsidising it so extensively as in Europe. Research has shown that the levels of aid that we provide cover the costs of conversion, and that seems to us to be sufficient.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the environmental benefits of organic farming are considerable? Given that the United Kingdom is reputedly in pursuit of sustainable development of all kinds, including sustainable farming, is it not time to rethink the attitude shown in his first Answer to the noble Earl, Lord Clanwilliam? It seems to me unfair that the subsidies to what is now called conventional farming should be so much more than those now given to organic farming. Will he accept that the benefits environmentally and to the health of individuals are great enough to justify another look at this question?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, the noble Baroness misunderstands the present situation. All the subsidies which are available for ordinary conventional farmers are available for organic farmers. We have designed the way in which we deal with set-aside, for instance, so that those converting to organic farms can benefit from the regulations. We have designed our environmental schemes so that they are much easier and much less costly for organic farmers to comply with than those on conventional farms. So there are many additional benefits already available to organic farmers. In our view, looking at the present situation, they are sufficient.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, is it not mad to subsidise set-aside, which, after all, produces mainly weeds, and not to subsidise organic farming?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, as I said, we subsidise organic farming substantially; we do not see the need to subsidise it more.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the vast majority of farmers regard organic farming—to use an old phrase—as mystery and magic? Until recently the same attitude permeated the Ministry of Agriculture, ADAS and most of the agricultural research establishments. Is the Minister further aware that organic farming, low-input farming and environmentally friendly farming—what might be termed generically as alternative farming—is much more demanding, both technically and intellectually, than conventional, high-input farming? There is a shortage of people in research who could help farmers to convert if a large number wished to do so. I do not believe that a telephone helpline will be enough.

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I do not disagree with the noble Lord that a lot of mystery surrounds conversion to organic farming. One reason why people may not have taken advantage of the help available to them is that they are fearful of the risks involved. That is why we launched the organic conversion information service. It involves free visits and free consultation as well as the telephone helpline. A lot of research is directed at exactly what are the costs of conversion and how best to go about it. Indeed, one of the experiments at ADAS, Terrington, is showing that conversion of a pure arable farm with good farmland can yield significant profits over conventional agriculture and may be worth doing without subsidy.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, while organic farming can produce food that many people may wish to buy, without conventional farming and the input of synthetically produced nitrogen the world would starve?

Lord Lucas
My Lords, that is taking the Question a little wide. I am not an organic vegetable eater and I am content to eat the products of conventional farming rather than pay double the price for the organic alternative.

The Earl of Clanwilliam
My Lords, perhaps the Minister will bring to the attention of his right honourable friend in the Ministry the fact that there is an imbalance of trade of 180 million a year to this country. That amount is being wasted by the failure of the Government to support the organic movement properly.

Lord Lucas
My Lords, I do not take such a segmented view of free trade. If there is a deficit in organic farming then the farmers who are not farming organically are producing other crops which are either generating a deficit in that regard or producing a surplus elsewhere. We do not have to have an equality in the balance of payments in every individual product or type of farming.