§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Earl Temple of Stowe asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they have any plans to ensure that British pensioners living in Canada are entitled to receive pensions in parity with those living in Britain.
Lord LucasMy Lords, we have no plans to pay pension increases in Canada. This issue was debated in the House at great length during consideration of the Pensions Bill. Amendments on this subject were defeated by large majorities on 20th February (Hansard, cols. 966 to 983) and on 14th March (Hansard, cols. 300 to 807).
§ Earl Temple of StoweMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. But is he aware that there are British pensioners living, for example, in British Columbia, many of whom are now in their 80s with a distinguished war service behind them, whose cases we may find particularly poignant at this time of national celebration? They have moved in order to be close to their families, and their pensions have been frozen at 22 dollars per week, while only a few miles away in the USA British pensioners receive 128 dollars per week. Does the Minister agree that that is a great anomaly and injustice, in particular in view of the fact that at one juncture the Canadian Government even offered to pay at least some of the cost? I believe that we should remember—
§ Earl Temple of StoweMy Lords, does the Minister remember that these pensions have already been paid for in full and that the then Ministry of Pensions and National Insurance gave a written assurance in 1956 that that entitlement to benefit would not be affected should the pensioner retire to Canada or the United States? It is not, therefore, I suggest—
The Lord Privy Seal (Viscount Cranborne)My Lords, I apologise for interrupting the noble Earl. As I am sure he knows, it is the custom of this House to try to keep questions reasonably brief. I hope that he will be able to bring his question to an end.
Lord LucasMy Lords, I refer the noble Earl to the extensive debates on the Pensions Bill. He will find the answers to many of his questions in those debates. Everyone who emigrated to Canada did so knowing what would happen to their pensions as a result. It has been a condition of the ordinary pension scheme ever since it was invented and put in place. No government have ever seen fit to change it. We are always ready to listen to what the Government of Canada may have to say, but they have yet to make proposals which have any chance of making progress.
§ Baroness Gardner of ParkesMy Lords, will the Minister confirm that the same situation applies throughout the Commonwealth and that it is reciprocal? I am not entitled to claim an Australian pension here, even though I remain Australian.
Lord LucasMy Lords, yes, a number of other Commonwealth countries contain a substantial number of British pensioners who do not receive the full pension. Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are among them.
§ Lord StallardMy Lords, will the Minister accept that that does not make it right and that the injustice remains? People in Commonwealth countries are treated less well than pensioners in non-Commonwealth countries. The Minister should remember that 33 other countries have changed the system and have agreed to the reciprocal social security arrangement which allows the payment of pensions. Is he aware that people are asking only that the injustice should be righted and that the same kind of agreement should be reached with the Commonwealth countries?
Lord LucasMy Lords, this is not an injustice but a term of the scheme which has been there and known to anyone who emigrated. What the noble Lord proposes is an improvement to the scheme. That will be considered along with all other possible improvements to social security and all other possible additions to government expenditure. At the moment the improvement does not rank high enough for our immediate consideration.
§ Lord SkelmersdaleMy Lords, does my noble friend accept that ever since the pension scheme began in the late 1940s, today's workers have paid for today's pensioners and that therefore it would be quite wrong for them to be expected to pay for people who choose to live elsewhere other than in this country?
Lord LucasMy Lords, I am not sure that I entirely share my noble friend's argument. Indeed, we pay substantial sums to pensioners who live overseas. It is clearly true that pensioners who live overseas do not pay British taxes and are therefore not contributing towards the payments to pensioners in this country, and in many cases they have not done so for many years. I would not 562 say that it was unjustified to pay pensions to people who live overseas, but merely that it is an improvement and not an injustice.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, does the noble Lord accept that, even though an injustice has been going on for a long time and people have emigrated despite the fact that the injustice was there, it still remains an injustice? I have never heard any real argument from the Government except that to change this is expensive. Is the Minister aware that the Conservative Party is trying to rally ex-pats to vote for it at the next general election and that it will need those votes badly? Does he not think that perhaps a little bribe might help?
Lord LucasMy Lords, we have no intention of indulging in bribery. As I said before, this is not an injustice. What the noble Lord is asking for is an improvement to a perfectly fair scheme.
§ Lord AiredaleMy Lords, is it taken on board that the National Health Service is relieved of the expense of having to look after these pensioners in their old age?