§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord Ellenboroughasked Her Majesty's Government:
Why, when the average number of electors required to return a Member of Parliament in England is approximately 69,500, the equivalent number in Scotland is only 55,000.
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, successive governments have endorsed the provision currently contained in Schedule 2 to the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986 that Scotland should be divided into not less than 71 constituencies. There has never been an equivalent provision for England.
§ Lord EllenboroughMy Lords, in thanking my noble and learned friend for that answer, may I reassure him that as an ardent United Kingdom Unionist I would have no cause to wish for there to be any change under the existing arrangements. But does he agree that, if there were a separate Scottish Parliament with wide powers, that would be a very different matter and would almost certainly necessitate a drastic reduction in the number of Scottish MPs in the House of Commons, with dire implications for the unity of the United Kingdom as a whole? Furthermore, is my noble and learned friend aware that the current devolutionary proposals of the Labour Party are even more irresponsible and worse than they were back in the late 1970s when they last plunged into the devolutionary quagmire? Does he further agree that the situation is worse now because the Labour Party wants to institute a motley collection of assemblies, regions and parliaments, all with different powers, which is a blue-print for disaster?
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Lord has said. There are clearly distinctive circumstances applying in Scotland. For example, if Orkney and Shetland and Caithness and Sutherland combined into one constituency, the electorate would still be significantly below the English average. As my noble friend will appreciate, I certainly do not advocate the establishment of a Scottish 1059 Parliament, and neither do I advocate the establishment of regional assemblies in England. I doubt whether there are any people in England who would want to have such assemblies established. However, if they were, I believe that one necessary consequence of a Scottish assembly would be a significant reduction in the number of Members of Parliament. Just to achieve an equivalence it would probably be necessary to bring the number down to 56. If they were to have less to do within a Westminster Parliament, one can see that there would be a compelling case for reducing the number even more.
§ Lord Ewing of KirkfordMy Lords, when the noble and learned Lord says that he is not in favour of the establishment of a Scottish Parliament, why does he not just add the word "now"? His present attitude was not always the position. When we started out on the course of devolution the noble and learned Lord was one of our strongest supporters, along with many of his colleagues in the Conservative Party. He should have the courage to say that he has changed his mind.
Will the noble and learned Lord accept that now that I am a Member of your Lordships' House the number of Scottish MPs does not seem to be of the same concern to me as it once was? But when we talk about electoral representation in Scotland, why does he not explain to his noble friend that, because of the reorganisation of local government in Scotland, at that level Scotland will become the most under-represented country in Europe? In Scotland we shall have fewer councillors representing the people than any other country in Europe. Is the Minister aware that it is that diminution of democracy in Scotland, which was inflicted on us by the Tory Party, which poses a threat to the Union?
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, it is curious that the noble Lord should seek to pray me into an alliance with him on matters relating to a Scottish assembly. If there had ever been a proposal which I thought was at least worth considering, it was the one put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Home, years ago, which was a very different proposal to the one which the noble Lord now puts forward. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his honesty because in an earlier debate in your Lordships' House it will be recollected that he pointed out that, if the West Lothian question is to be answered, it will mean that regional assemblies in England will have to be given exactly the same powers as are to be given to a Scottish assembly—in other words, the gutting of England and the end of the Westminster Parliament.
§ Baroness Carnegy of LourMy Lords, to return to the more immediate Question on the Order Paper, does not my noble and learned friend agree that travelling through the Highland areas of Scotland and the Border country it is very easy to understand why each Member of Parliament represents a smaller number of constituents than the average in England because the population is sparse? It is across the central belt of 1060 Scotland where the comparison can be made much more closely with the highly populated areas of England. That is where the trouble is.
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, my noble friend is correct. Circumstances are very different in the remote rural parts of Scotland and, given its geography, one understands why the Western Isles constituency has an electorate of only some 22,000. Perhaps I may reassure my noble friend that some years ago the central Glasgow constituencies had very small electorates. However, I am glad to say that that position has been corrected and the three smallest Scottish constituencies are now remote rural constituencies. A further boundary review is under way, and I believe that in the west central belt the figures will more or less come up to the Scottish average.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, given the strength of the Lander in Germany and the undoubted power of the Federal German Government, why does the Minister think that regional devolution in Great Britain would lead to the demise of the Westminster Parliament?
§ Lord MottistoneBecause we are not Germans!
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, that question seems to have been answered for me. My concern is that, while I regard Scotland within the Union as a nation, I also regard England within the Union as a nation and I do not believe that it does anyone in England any good to have what has been the unity of England for some 800 years broken up.
§ Lord Carmichael of KelvingroveMy Lords, the Minister mentioned the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel. We should get this straight. When the referendum was held in, I think, 1979 he made a clear statement that he would introduce a proper devolution Bill and that we should not therefore vote on the Bill that was then put forward by the Government. That caused distortion and a great deal of feeling against devolution among Conservatives. Fortunately, there are now even fewer Conservatives in Scotland than there were then. He also suggested that there was some support for devolution at one time. May I quote—
§ Lord Carmichael of KelvingroveMy Lords, a very distinguished Member of the other House, who is reckoned to be possibly the next Foreign Secretary, made it clear that he was totally in favour of devolution for Scotland. I am referring to the present Secretary of State for Defence, Malcolm Rifkind, as well as which—
§ Lord Carmichael of KelvingroveMy Lords, if Scotland had had proper representation on geographic terms, I understand that there would be something like 90 Members for Scotland. Whatever the Government expect to do now, I believe that Conservative 1061 representation in Scotland is now running at about the same percentage as that for Gerry Adams in Northern Ireland.
§ Lord Fraser of CarmyllieMy Lords, the important thing that the noble Lord, Lord Home, revealed at the time of the referendum was that the proposals that were being put before the Scottish people were fundamentally flawed. In the 15 years that have elapsed since then, no significant effort has been made to eliminate those flaws. To return to the Question, I want Scottish constituencies to remain as they are. In particular, I hope that the West Lothian constituency will continue to vex us for a considerable time!