HL Deb 25 January 1995 vol 560 cc1055-8

2.44 p.m.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the regulator or Ministers will exercise their powers to prevent any reduction of through-ticketing facilities at British Rail stations.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Viscount Goschen)

My Lords, the Secretary of State for Transport and the Rail Regulator both have a statutory duty under the Railways Act 1993 to promote measures to protect through-ticketing. The regulator is consulting on the requirements for retailing through-tickets which he might impose on operators as a licence condition.

Lord Taylor of Gryfe

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Where exactly does authority lie in this matter? Is he aware that when the Rail Regulator announced the proposed reduction of core stations to 294 his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport said: If the regulator is proposing that the number of stations offering through-ticketing should be fewer than now, that is unacceptable"? Can the Minister tell me where authority lies in this matter? Is it with the Secretary of State, who declares the through-ticketing arrangements to be unacceptable, or the regulator, who insists that that is what he proposes to do? It raises an important constitutional question. Since the recommendation on through-ticketing there has been a further announcement from the regulator that the price for using Railtrack should be substantially reduced—reduced by £1.5 billion. Will the Minister tell me what the effect on the flotation price of Railtrack will be if revenues are cut to that extent?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the noble Lord's final question is very different from that concerned with through-ticketing. If I may correct the noble Lord, first, the regulator did not announce that there would be 294 core stations. The regulator is engaged in a consultation exercise which has yet to be completed. The noble Lord asked about the division of authority. The position is that the Rail Regulator is under a statutory duty to facilitate through journeys involving services of more than one operator. He is not authorised to grant passenger train operating licences except with the Secretary of State's approval, without an obligation on operators to comply with approved arrangements for the sale and honouring of through tickets. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport has powers to give guidance to the regulator and, under the Railways Act, the regulator is obliged to take account of it.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, will my noble friend and his Minister take account of the fact that, if through-ticketing is in any substantial degree reduced, it will have a very adverse effect on the public reaction to privatisation of the railways?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that through-ticketing and other network benefits have a substantial effect on the desirability of the railway. That is why the Government have always been committed to seeing improvements in the service.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that many people are extremely puzzled as to the difficulties which appear to be being realised in relation to through-ticketing? Is he further aware that before the war, when we had several railway companies, there was a system called the railway clearing house which managed to provide through-ticketing for very many more stations than we have at the present time and without the assistance of computers? That being so, why on earth is it proving so difficult for through-ticketing to be arranged after privatisation?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I do not believe that there are difficulties with the issue of through-ticketing. The regulator will be setting a minimum standard. We do not expect it to be the norm. The noble Lord described what happened many years ago with the clearing house system. We believe that private sector operators will take full advantage of the innovations in technology and computer booking and retailing systems in delivering a service which the customer wants.

Lord De Freyne

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some years ago one could get a ticket on the Great West Clare Railway from Kilkee to Paddington? Possibly that could still be done.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that information.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, as regards the availability of timetables, particularly InterCity ones, I understand that these are now being restricted. I also understand that at one time there was even the possibility that they would no longer be produced. Can the noble Viscount give an assurance that this very important service, alongside through-ticketing, will be taken into account so that the availability of this service can be generally known to the travelling public?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the objective of this privatisation exercise is substantially to improve the service which the railway network gives consumers in order to provide more choice. I am sure that timetabling and the availability of timetables are an essential part of that.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, can my noble friend explain why it is necessary to buy tickets at railway stations which, after all, are for boarding and dismounting from trains rather than for the sale of tickets?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, my noble friend asks a very important question. Of course, retailing from other outlets—such as travel agents—the use of railway warrants, telesales and the purchase of tickets on the train itself will be an important part of the way in which tickets are sold in future.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, can the noble Viscount give an assurance that the reduced fares which are available to those of advanced years will continue to be available under the new regime, if and when it comes into effect?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I believe that assurances have already been given on the issue of discount-type fares.

Lord Jenkins of Hillhead

My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that just under 150 years ago, Mr. Gladstone, who was not unassociated with the noble Viscount's great grandfather, I would guess, made a slightly sad journey from King's Cross to a station between Dundee and Aberdeen and complained that, contrary to assurances which he had been firmly given, he was forced to pay five times in five separate instalments? Is the noble Viscount further aware that that had the effect of turning the mind of as notable an individualist as Gladstone to the benefits of rail nationalisation?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I am very grateful, as I am sure the whole House is, for the history lesson on this particular subject. We believe that the privatised rail network will deliver all the benefits for which Mr. Gladstone would have been grateful.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking to the House that rural areas in particular will not be prejudiced as a result of any new arrangements in connection with through-ticketing? How does the Minister reconcile his answer to one of my noble friends, that the Minister has real powers in this matter if the regulator decides, while taking account of what the Minister has to say, to go his own way? Furthermore, how does it make any sense for the Minister in another place to say that the concept of reducing the number of core stations to 294 is unacceptable?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, the regulator has a duty to protect passengers and to make sure that the service is improved and up to the standards which we all demand. As I mentioned, the Secretary of State has the power to give guidance to the regulator. But ultimately there are clear advantages from having an independent regulator. For the first time it will mean that the railways will have a guarantee of the minimum service available.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, can my noble friend take a look at the 20th century and one system which works? It would be delighted to give the regulator or the Minister free advice—that is to say, one address, one telephone number and one person in Berne with Swiss Railways.

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I am very grateful for the offer.

Lord Richard

My Lords, can the Minister clear up this situation once and for all? On behalf of the Government, can he give an undertaking that, under privatisation, rail through-ticketing will in fact be secured to the same level as it is at the moment?

Viscount Goschen

My Lords, I believe that I have made the situation absolutely clear. The regulator has a duty which I have fully explained. For the first time the railways and the passengers using them will have the protection of a minimum standard. That does not exist at the moment.