European Democratic Group: Membership (Hansard, 22 June 1994)

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the European Democratic Group to which the Conservative delegation belong is a respected and influential grouping of centre-Right Members of Parliament from all over Europe. British Conservative MPs have not sponsored the membership of the Italian MPs in question, nor do they control membership of the European Democratic Group.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, I thank the noble Minister for that reply. I acknowledge that governments have to deal with members of parties of whom they may not approve; but is it necessary —as I understand is the case—that the Conservative delegation should col-laborate with a party which regards Mussolini as the greatest statesman of the 20th century?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I think it was only the leader of that party who made those statements. I have to say that we utterly condemn—

Noble Lords
Only!

§ Lord Henley
I would like to go on to say that it was the leader of that party but not a member of the new Italian Government, which does obviously contain members of that particular party. The Conservative Party does not seek alliances with parties such as that: its ideology is completely and utterly different from ours and I would repudiate its particular beliefs. But as regards the European Democratic Group, it is a group of some 77 different members, 10 of whom are Conservative members. I think to renounce our membership of that group purely because of the membership of those two would be something of an overreaction; and I do have to say it is not actually clear quite how those two Italian MPs did become members of that group.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is quite easy to find out exactly what these parties do? In the case of the Liberal group in the Council of Europe, we were faced with an application from a group calling itself the Liberal Democrats. The leader of that group was called Zhirinovsky, and he demonstrated quite clearly that his views were not liberal and so we were able to reject him. Will the noble Lord note, when he replies, that I have my hearing aid in?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord, or the noble Lord's group, would have accepted members of the Literal Democrats? I do have to say that it is not a matter in our hands; but I do not think, as the 271 question seems to imply, that resigning from that group would be an appropriate reaction to the membership of those two particular MPs.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the noble Lord indulge in a little historical introspection in relation to his own party? I know that it was before his time, but does he agree that before the last war pungent observations were made by the party of which he is a distinguished member in support of Signor Mussolini? Immediately before the last war, the leaders of his party gave Mussolini consistent support. Will the noble Lord give the House an assurance that we shall not have a repetition, and that it will be unnecessary to refer to the matter further?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I think that it is somewhat ridiculous to say that we should start picking and choosing with whom we do business. It is quite ridiculous for the party opposite to say that if they were in government they would have absolutely no dealings with neo-fascists. Governments of any persuasion always have to recognise and do business with fairly unsavoury regimes, as governments always have and always will. Governments of the party opposite have done so in the past.

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, does the Minister accept that this could be a very embarrassing exchange if it continues for very long, because one could then start probing into the political origins of the late Sir Oswald Mosley?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, my history is somewhat weak, but I seem to remember that he was a member of a variety of different parties before he ended up where he did. The noble Lord is quite right to draw the attention of the House to that particular analogy.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister serious when he says that one has no options in picking and choosing one's friends in the Council of Europe or the European Parliament? Does he feel that Italian neo-fascists should be welcomed in both places with approbation by members of his party? Is he aware that, as I am proud to say—and I think that I speak also for my noble friend Lord Richard during his mandate—in the four years during which I was a commissioner I never once spoke to an Italian or French fascist?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, first, I ought to remind the noble Lord that while we may not like its views, that party was democratically elected by the people of Italy. Secondly, the noble Lord has misrepresented what I said. I made clear that governments have to do business with fairly unsavoury people on occasion. It is thoroughly irresponsible of the party opposite and spokesmen of the party opposite to say that they would have no dealings with neo-fascists or neo-fascist governments, when in the past they have dealt with thoroughly unsavoury regimes of both the Left and the Right.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords—

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
Oh dear!

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, I do not think that the Minister listened to the supplementary question which I put to him, when I made a clear distinction between the relations between governments and the relations between political parties, so to some extent his answer is totally irrelevant. We are not asking the Conservative Party to resign; we are asking the Conservative Party not to accept a neo-fascist party as; a member of its group.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord listened to my first response. I made it quite clear that Conservative MEP members of the group have not sponsored the membership of the Italian MPs in question, nor do they control the membership of the European Democratic Group.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, perhaps I may have another try! I wanted to ask my noble friend the Minister what is the object of sitting in groups anyway. What is it in aid of?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, we are all members of parties. It is up to the individual members of the Council of Europe to decide for themselves, and not a matter on which I would like to speak, as to why they would like to sit in groups.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, is it not a matter for the Members of the European Parliament and nothing whatever to do with the Government?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I think that I ought to help the noble Lord. It is not related to the European Parliament; it is related to the Council of Europe, which is composed of delegates from all the member state parliaments.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, the noble Lord asserted that these neo-fascists were elected. Is it not a fact that Hitler and Mussolini were also democratically elected?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. I made it quite clear that we do not in any way endorse the ideology of the party to which we are referring. Nevertheless, those people have been elected by the Italian people. The party opposite implied that they would have no dealings with members of a government from that party. To take that attitude is grossly and utterly irresponsible.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, can my noble friend remember a more puerile exchange of questions and answers than we have just been having?

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, we still have three minutes available. There is plenty of time to take this matter further. Is the noble Lord, Lord Henley, aware that some of us are concerned that he is confusing the issue? He says, quite rightly, that governments of all kinds have to be dealt with. But that is not what the Question asks. On this side of the House, we understand that one has to deal with all kinds of government, elected or unelected. However, the Question asks whether the Government are in favour of Conservative 273 Party members of the Council of Europe supporting this fascist group becoming a member of the same grouping as themselves. Are the Government in favour of that, or are they not? Do not confuse the issue this time.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I should be the last one to confuse the issue. I have not confused the issue at all. I have made our position absolutely clear. It is not clear how these two members became members of the group. It is not in the control of the Conservative delegation as to whether they are members of the group. I added that I think that the party opposite has been irresponsible in saying that it would have no contact or dealings with neo-fascist members of a government of a friendly country.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, the Minister is absolutely right: the Conservative Party members do not control the entry of the neo-fascists into that group. Is he also aware that they can leave the group?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, again, I dealt with that point earlier. I did not think that that would be an appropriate response to the addition of two members to a group of some 87 members.