Fire Safety Legislation: Deregulation (Hansard, 21 June 1994)

§ LordStrathclyde
My Lords, the recommendations of all the deregulation task forces were published on 19th January 1994 and their working papers were made available in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament on 30th March. Ministers are now considering the report by the review team and the question of its publication, and expect to come shortly to a decision.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, is he aware of the serious concern among many senior fire officers about what the Government are doing on the matter? Is he also aware that, so far as concerns the construction industry task force, there were no consultations with the fire service? Is he further aware of the statement made by his honourable friend, Mr. Wardle, in a Written Answer in the House of Commons on 26th May (at col. 279 of Hansard) in which he said that there were no "formal consultations" between his officials and the construction industry task force on fire legislation and enforcement? Can that possibly be a satisfactory way to proceed?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is an entirely satisfactory way of proceeding according to our objective, which was to obtain from industry groups what their concerns were with fire regulations. Once we had received that information, we decided that the review team should check it out. If any proposals are to be brought before Parliament, then that is the stage at which full consultation should take place; and it will.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I am slightly puzzled by the Minister's Answer. Is what he refers to as the "review team" the same as what the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, refers to as the "scrutiny team"; or, alternatively, are they two different bodies? More generally, the Minister is aware that we are about to start the Committee stage of the deregulation Bill. If within that process, as is highly likely, we shall be discussing fire safety regulation and enforcement, will we have the full set of documents about which we have been talking before we come to deal with the matter?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we shall be coming to a view on the publication of the report very soon.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, that is not the answer to my question. The Minister has already told the noble Lord, Lord Harris, that Ministers will be coming to a decision. However, if I and other noble Lords want to discuss the matter within the deregulation Bill, can we be assured that we shall see all the relevant documentation which the Government have to hand?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am trying to be helpful, but I cannot confirm that we shall have the report. However, it is not in fact relevant to the deregulation Bill. As the noble Lord knows perfectly well, if a proposal is brought to Parliament under the provisions of the Bill full consultation will ensue. That is the aspect of the matter with which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, is particularly concerned.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, although we note the point that the Minister has made—namely, that Ministers are considering in what form the report should be published—it is essential that the House should have such information before we proceed to debate the Bill. Is the Minister aware that one of the suggestions that has been made is that the Fire Precautions Act 1971 is to be repealed? Is that true?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is very difficult for me to go further than the commitments that I have made. As I said, Ministers have yet to make a final decision about the report's publication and the date on which that will be done. However, I shall certainly consider what the noble Lord has said.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, does the Minister believe that governors and managers should also be consulted?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am not sure what business managers should be consulted about—

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
Governors of schools.

§ Lord Strathclyde
I am not quite sure what governors of schools should be consulted on in the matter. However, as I made plain, and as the deregulation Bill will demonstrate, before a proposal is made to Parliament the Minister must ensure that he has consulted all relevant groups. It is a matter for the special procedure of both Houses to decide whether those groups have been properly consulted.

§ Viscount Torrington
My Lords, can my noble friend possibly explain why it is that in British hotels, because of fire doors, the task of trying to get from reception to one's bedroom is rather like a trip down the locks of the Grand Union Canal? Could it be that the fire regulations in that context are overdue for review?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is precisely such questions which the review team was asked to consider. The team has now reported, and Ministers are still deciding whether to publish the report.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, why can we not have the publication? What is the mystery? Why should Parliament not be given full detailed information which is in the possession of Ministers?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, again there is not very much more that I can say. But I fully understand the noble Lord's point. As I said, Ministers have not yet made a decision. That is why I cannot answer the noble Lord. However, when the decision is made I shall inform him.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend behind me asked the question about schools because they have always been omitted from the fire regulations. Is it not high time that they were brought within the scope of the regulations?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, I believe that that question strays somewhat beyond the question on the Order Paper, which refers to a review of fire regulations. If schools are currently excluded from the fire regulations, clearly it is not an area that the review board would have looked at in any great detail.

Lord Monks well
My Lords, surely our discussion raises the whole problem of the way that the Government are conducting the review on fire regulations. When an industrialist comes forward with proposals for deregulation, that is only one aspect of the problem. In the process of their consideration of the regulations, would it not be right for the Government to consult formally with a number of other bodies? I have in mind especially the workers involved in certain industries through their trade unions and consumers of the industries. In that context, and bearing in mind the question raised earlier about schools, would not the sort of regulations that will protect their children be of some concern to parents?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord speaks from a level of such ignorance that I am really amazed at the way that he posed his question. Very soon we shall begin the Committee stage of the Deregulation and Contracting Out Bill. No doubt we shall hear more fully from him at that time.