HL Deb 20 July 1994 vol 557 cc236-9

3.10 p.m.

Earl Russell asked Her Majesty's Government:

Further to Viscount St. Davids' reply of 4th July (H.L. Deb. col. WA62) to the question, how many 16 or 17 year-olds in South Glamorgan were not in education, training or employment in each of the first four months of 1993, and what percentages of the age group these figures represent, whether they have anything to add to the reply that "the information is not available in the form requested".

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, the information which I gave in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, was the basis on which the Government monitor the performance of South Glamorgan Training and Enterprise Council in meeting the youth training guarantee. It therefore represented the closest approximation to the information requested which could be provided from the records held by the Careers Service and the South Glamorgan Training and Enterprise Council.

Earl Russell

My Lords, is the Minister aware that he answered the wrong Question? He mentioned the Youth Training Guarantee group. We have now available a report published by South Glamorgan TEC which pointed out that as an indicator of what was requested— the number of people not in education, training or employment— it is not a defensible indicator". Is the Minister aware that that report indicates that those in this condition comprise 1,673 persons or 17.9 per cent. of the age group? Is he aware also that the records available to his department do not enable him to refute or even criticise that figure?

Viscount St Davids

My Lords, the Government are aware of the report commissioned by South Glamorgan Training and Enterprise Council. The source figures used in the report relating to the Youth Training Guarantee are consistent with those provided by the Careers Service and the TEC to the Government. The Government are not able to comment on the reliability or accuracy of other tables in the report without detailed information being provided on survey methodology, including the basis of assumptions made in compilation of the tables.

The figures I gave in the written response to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, have no direct counterpart in the South Glamorgan report. The report used the Youth Training Guarantee figures, which he will find on Table 3.1, of which the figures quoted in the earlier reply are a. sub-set.

Lord Callaghan of Cardiff

My Lords, if I may say so that is an exercise in obfuscation. Is not the nub of the Question the fact that there are several hundred young people at any one time in South Glamorgan of the age of 16 and 17 who are neither in training, in a job nor, alternatively, continuing with their education? That is supposed to be the Government's policy. It is failing by between 15 and 25 per cent. In those circumstances, instead of arguing about figures, should not the Government find out by means of a pilot survey whether or not the information from the University of Wales, Cardiff, is accurate? If it is, will they please take steps to make sure that this vulnerable group of young people are found in one or other of the categories to which the Government are directing their policies?

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, the Government made sufficient funds available to meet demand for youth training. In addition, training and enterprise councils in Wales were invited to bid against £250,000 available in the current financial year for pilot schemes aimed at encouraging young people to take up employment, training or further education. That is intended to help the TECs work with both voluntary and statutory organisations to trace and identify those young people who may have fallen through the net.

Viscount Tonypandy

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his reply sounds unpleasantly complacent? A major problem exists and my noble friend Lord Callaghan of Cardiff expressed the deep anxieties of people in South Glamorgan at the figures revealed by those responsible people in the University of Cardiff.

Viscount St Davids

My Lords, I can assure the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy, that the Government, and through them the Welsh Office, are far from complacent in this matter.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, are we not in danger of going off the rails? Surely what matters is not so much the figures—1,673 was quoted from a particular source—but why some young people, for one reason or another, are unable to take advantage of the Government's guarantee of work, training or education. Is it not a fact that some people will inevitably be waiting while courses are arranged for them?

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, the youth training scheme is not a compulsory programme. It is therefore entirely reasonable that compliance with the YT guarantee should be measured with reference to those registered with the Careers Service.

Lord Murray of Epping Forest

My Lords, are the Government aware that, contrary to what was suggested in the previous response, it is not a marginal or transitory problem? The South Glamorgan study bore out the results of research conducted by many other organisations including, for example, the NCH report on a "lost generation". If the noble Viscount is doubtful about the quality of the statistics or the results, will he commission independent research to examine the reasons for this, the consequences and the actions that should be taken both by government and other organisations to deal with what I am sure he accepts is a serious social problem?

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, the Government have examined many studies in this area which include the labour force study, the pupil destinations statistics prepared by the Careers Service, the youth cohort study and the national on-line manpower information service prepared by the University of Durham. I can only repeat that the Government are extremely concerned and that is why they are making extra funds available for TECs to bid against in order to find a solution to these problems.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, bearing in mind that this is a serious problem in South Glamorgan for 16 and 17 year-olds, who now seem to have no interest in their future and no one else seems to be interested in their future, will the noble Viscount make an examination of 16 and 17 year-olds throughout the entire nation who may be suffering from this form of deprivation? It is extremely serious for the future of our country and should command the immediate and full attention of the Government.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, the Welsh Office and other departments of the Government are concerned with these matters and do everything they can to relieve the situation and bring themselves up to date with all the statistics available.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, the replies of the noble Viscount thus far, particularly to my noble friend Lord Callaghan, have not satisfied the House that the Government are in possession of the facts. Will he now give an undertaking that they will conduct a survey in the area so that we may be satisfied that the Government know what are the real facts?

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I shall ask my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to read today's Hansard and consider your Lordships' expressed anxiety. If possible he will ensure that any further statistics and guidance will be made available.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, the Government have had five months to digest the report. First, do they now accept that the YT guarantee group information, which they gave in reply to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, on 4th July, is a gross underestimation of the young people aged 16 and 17 not in education, training and employment? Secondly, in response to the question posed by my noble friends Lord Murray of Epping Forest and Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos, can we urge the Government to commission research in South Glamorgan in order to validate those figures? Will they initiate research also on an all-Wales basis and on a Wales and England basis? This is a matter of great anxiety to the people of Great Britain generally.

Viscount St. Davids

My Lords, I have just assured the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, that I shall bring this matter to the attention of my right honourable friend and I shall certainly make sure that it is drawn to the attention of other departments.