Betting and Lotteries (Northern Ireland) Order 1994

HL Deb 12 July 1994 vol 556 cc1708-11

7.44 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Baroness Denton of Wakefield) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 24th May be approved.

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the purpose of the draft Betting and Lotteries (Northern Ireland) Order 1994 is to introduce provisions broadly in line with the corresponding provisions already in force in Great Britain by the enactment of the National Lottery etc. Act 1993. It may be helpful if I comment briefly on the order and then say a few words about the detailed provisions.

The order amends current legislation in this area principally to enable charitable organisations and football pools to compete more effectively with the forthcoming national lottery. The Government included provisions in last year's National Lottery etc. Bill to enable societies' lotteries to counter possible loss of revenue arising from the introduction of the national lottery. They also made concessions to the football pools industry which had regarded the new lottery as unfair competition. In addition, some further controls on lotteries were introduced. This order contains the corresponding appropriate measures for Northern Ireland. It allows a society to sell tickets in a private lottery to non-members of that society while they are on the society's premises.

In relation to the football pools, the order removes the current restrictions which prevent premises being used for the delivery of football pool coupons and related stake money. It also reduces the age limit for participation in the football pools from 18 to 16 years.

The order increases the maximum prize in a society's lottery from £8,000 to £25,000 in amount or value or 10 per cent. of the lottery proceeds, whichever is the greater. The requirement to use at least 30 per cent. of the lottery proceeds for prizes is omitted. It also introduces new, or amends the existing, rules on advertising, donation of expenses, the frequency of lotteries and other miscellaneous matters.

The order will, for the most part, bring Northern Ireland law into line with the corresponding provisions of the law in Great Britain. In Great Britain, however, the maximum proceeds for a single lottery have been increased to £1 million and the maximum annual proceeds of all lotteries promoted by one society are now £5 million. In view of Northern Ireland's smaller population, it was decided to retain the present equivalent maximum limits of £80,000 and £1 million.

The proposed changes attracted few responses from our consultation. It may be, however, that this was because the White Paper on the national lottery was issued to a wide range of interests in Northern Ireland and my department took account of the views expressed on the local lottery law as a result of that exercise. The order will, in my view, make a significant contribution towards the fund-raising efforts of charitable organisations and assist the operation of the football pool industry in Northern Ireland. I commend the order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 24th May be approved.—(Baroness Denton of Wakefield.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing and explaining this short order. What is important is that the changes which will be brought about by the order broadly reflect the views and the values of the residents of Northern Ireland. For that reason I would appreciate hearing from the Minister —if she can tell me—precisely what consultations preceded the drawing of the order. How wide were those consultations? For what period of time did the consultations proceed? Was the draft of the proposed order amended in any way to meet the objections or the comments raised in the course of such consultation?

I read the Official Report of the debate on the order which took place in another place on 28th June. I have no fresh points of detail to raise but it would be helpful if the Minister could deal with just two questions which were the cause of some concern in the other place.

First, are the Government fully satisfied that the amendments to the general law of Northern Ireland embodied in the order will provide adequate protection to the smaller charities serving the local communities against the impact of the national lottery? It would be a mischief crying for redress if the national lottery were to undermine the spirit of giving which has sustained local charities for generations. It seems to me that when she introduced the order the Minister went a long way to giving the assurance that we require.

My second question seeks information about the future of working men's clubs in Northern Ireland. Do the Government have any plans for future legislation relating in particular to working men's clubs and to friendly and benevolent societies in Northern Ireland? That question was of particular concern to my honourable friend Mr. William O'Brien in another place. As the noble Baroness, Lady Denton, is the Minister with special responsibility for such clubs in Northern Ireland I trust that she will be able to take the House into her confidence.

With those few comments I am pleased on behalf of these Benches to support the order.

The Viscount of Falkland

My Lords, on these Benches we feel that the order in itself is relatively uncontentious. However, one or two points are raised by the order and I hope that the noble Baroness will be kind enough to comment on them. She has already explained the order and what it relates to very clearly.

Obviously, the national lottery will have some effect on Northern Ireland. We do not expect a great deal of income to flow into Northern Ireland as a result of the lottery. So far as I know, there are few, if any, shareholders in Northern Ireland of the firm which won the contract to operate the lottery. We on these Benches have always been keen to see that the proceeds for distribution from the lottery are evenly spread throughout the United Kingdom. We still maintain that that is desirable. I believe that some comfort will be derived from the order as a result of what the noble Baroness said.

Many small communities rely on their own lotteries in order to fund activities which help to cement community relations. It would be sad if, as a result of the national lottery, those smaller lotteries were to suffer in any way.

I am curious about one or two points relating to the 1985 order and why the Government have not to date seen fit to alter them. One is the ticklish question of competitions which, according to the law, require some element of skill in order to win a prize. In a recent competition in Northern Ireland purchasers of a chocolate bar qualified for a prize if they had a winning wrapper. It seems that in Northern Ireland the law has not been enforced in that area. It is an important point and I would value the response of the noble Baroness in relation to the importance of enforcing that law or whether steps should be taken to repeal it.

Overall, the order appears to be sensible. I do not know whether other noble Lords have any views about reducing to 16 the age of those who are qualified to take part in football pools. It seems that generally throughout the United Kingdom public policy as regards gambling has changed, almost imperceptibly. I have no strong feelings on the matter myself, but one has only to take the recent case of cash betting on Sunday racing going through on the nod. There appears to have been a change, and I wonder whether the noble Baroness can say whether the consultation which has taken place in Northern Ireland indicated any community view reflecting concern about the change of attitude towards gambling, of which lotteries are a part.

Baroness Denton of Wakefield

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord and the noble Viscount for their input on the order, which they have welcomed overall. Both raised specific points, which I shall try to answer.

I assure the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, that the consultation process was wide and followed the normal arrangements for consultation on proposals for draft Orders in Council. The proposal was published in December 1993 with comments required in February 1994. No changes were made to the draft order as a result of that consultation process. As I indicated earlier, I believe that that was mainly because the consultation on the National Lottery etc. Act itself had been wide and in drafting the order officials had taken into account the Northern Ireland comments on the Act. That meant that we were able to represent the views that we had heard.

I repeat the assurance that my honourable friend gave in another place that we shall be monitoring closely the effect of the national lottery on small charities. As the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, said, there is a great ethos of charitable giving in Northern Ireland. It is my expectation that such is the affection and involvement of people in Northern Ireland for their own specific charities that we shall see much continued support for those charities. However, as I said, the matter will be monitored closely.

I assure the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, that Northern Ireland will be represented on the UK council for the national lottery. We shall try to ensure that Northern Ireland benefits. There are many areas in which it could well benefit. I am sure that people will make those areas known. I can assure the noble Viscount that the Minister also has a loud voice on such occasions.

The question which the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, raised about prizewinners and the lack of a skill element in competitions is outside the scope of the order. However, I shall investigate the point and write to him.

As regards the reduction of the age for involvement in football pools to 16, I think that it would be wrong for Northern Ireland to be different from the United Kingdom. There was some comment on the point from the community but no widespread objection.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the question of working men's clubs. A separate review of the law on registration of clubs in Northern Ireland is being carried out at present, as indeed is a review of the licensing laws. Both are closely interlinked. I believe that I am to see the last delegation on that issue this month. Following that consultation we shall bring forward proposals for change, which will be set out in a draft order. Therefore, that subject is high on the agenda.

I hope that I have answered most of the questions that were put. I shall write to noble Lords in respect of those I was unable to answer. I commend the order to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.