§ 3.2 p.m.
§ Lord Bonham-Carter asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What is their position on the release of voting figures in the Council of Ministers on legislative matters.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)My Lords, as part of efforts towards greater openness in the European Union, we were active in securing agreement by the Council in December 1993 on procedures for publishing votes. We fully support the arrangements for implementing those procedures.
§ Lord Bonham-CarterMy Lords, I thank the Minister for her Answer and congratulate the Government on the part that they played in opening up the proceedings of the Council of Ministers. However, does she agree that, although people are glad to know how their representatives voted, they would also like to know why? Therefore, does she further agree that the Council of Ministers' considerations of legislative matters should be made public, as are considerations of legislative matters in the British Parliament?
§ Baroness Chalker of WallaseyMy Lords, it is a rare day when the noble Lord congratulates the Government, but I am very happy to accept that we played a part in changing the attitudes of other member states and in gaining this improvement in the publication of votes. As to the reasons for the votes, I am sure that from country to country, even when the vote is the same, the reasons for the vote may be different. It would be difficult for the Council to publish reasons when they are not always given. However, there is absolutely no reason why they should not be revealed in questions. When we hold press conferences at the end of Council meetings, fellow Ministers are only too willing to give reasons. I am sure that that will become the order of the day. However, I must advise the noble Lord that, although the Netherlands, Denmark and we ourselves are very open to that, some other countries are not.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the Minister accept my congratulations also on the progress that she seems to have made on this? Is she aware, however, that we are still a long way from the position that was arrived at in the Edinburgh Council on 12th December 1992? The document that was issued then stated:
When a formal vote is taken in Council, the record of the vote (including explanations of vote where delegations request these) shall be published.We are still not much further forward on that. When the Minister refers to the "Council of Ministers", is she including not only the European Council, but also the 30 other Councils which are in session from time to time? The general impression is that there is still far too much secrecy surrounding these proceedings.
§ Baroness Chalker of WallaseyMy Lords, I very much sympathise with the noble Lord when he talks about the need for all Councils to be open in the way in which the European Council has become open. The word "Councils" refers to all Councils, not solely to the European Council. It is clear that the moves that we took in Edinburgh in 1992 have slowly become a proper procedure because, when we took the agreement at the last Foreign Affairs Council in December last year that legislative decisions would automatically be published, unless exceptionally the Council decided against publication, that was followed up by the publication of other votes. I can assure the noble Lord—I willingly accept even his congratulations on the fact—that some real progress in this matter has been made thanks to the British.
§ Lord RichardMy Lords, the Minister will no doubt think that this is a strange day when I say how very much I agree with my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington. I should like to be clear exactly where we are on this issue. As I understand it, a policy change is expected to be announced this week. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that that is so. That change will be that there is now to be a public, open and formal register of Ministers' votes in the Council of Ministers. That is to be initiated from now, but the voting records from 1989 to 1993 are not to be revealed. Is that the position? I understand that only votes are to be revealed, not the reasons for the voting. That is what I understand to be the position. Can the Minister confirm or deny that position?
§ Baroness Chalker of WallaseyMy Lords, I can confirm that after discussions at both the Birmingham and Edinburgh Councils in 1992, we now have these major changes. Since December last year, most votes taken in Council have been made public in the press release issued after each meeting but, as I answered before, not the reasons. As far as decisions made before December 1993 are concerned, the agreement that we reached on 6th December was that future votes would be released, not past votes. I do not believe that we could have achieved unanimity on getting such agreement on past votes, even if they could have been found in all the documents. Each member state can obviously declare its own votes before 1993, but it cannot force others to declare theirs. What we have gained is a release of all future voting figures, but not of retrospective declarations.