HL Deb 10 January 1994 vol 551 cc4-5

2.45 p.m.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, in connection with which I wish to declare that I am in receipt of a pension from one of the schemes.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are having discussions with the trustees of the British Coal pension schemes in the light of the relevant proposals contained in the Coal Industry Bill.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Strathclyde)

My Lords, the Government have held extensive discussions with the trustees of the coal pension schemes on the relevant provisions in the Coal Industry Bill. These discussions are continuing.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the reassurance that discussions are continuing. Does he accept that in view of the large scale of the schemes, the total assets of which amount to more than £16 billion, and the very large number of people involved—the number of pensioners and deferred pensioners exceeds 600,000—the issue needs to be treated with the greatest care? Is the Minister aware that there is grave anxiety about the proposal that the Secretary of State shall retain powers to modify the schemes in the national interest? Will he give art assurance that the interests and entitlements of pensioners will be as much safeguarded in the future as they have been in the past, bearing in mind that the schemes are among the best managed pension funds in Britain?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord about the size and the scale of the pension schemes to which he referred. I confirm that the Government have no plans to override the fiduciary duties of the trustees. The Bill ensures that the trustees shall have proper regard to the interests of the taxpayer as guarantor in performing their fiduciary duties.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the NUM represented among the trustees? Will the Minister find out for sure whether it is? If the NUM is not so represented, ought it not to be invited to attend the discussions because it is undoubtedly the greatest representative of Britain's miners?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, as I said in my Answer, discussions are still continuing with the pension trustees, during which these matters can be raised.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, is it a correct interpretation of Schedule 5 to the Bill that the Secretary of State can help himself to half of any surplus assets in an existing pension scheme even though those assets will otherwise be distributable in accordance with the scheme?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, yes, that is the case, but there is a clear reason for that. The Government will he taking on a substantial contingent liability when they take over the current pension schemes.

Lord Marsh

My Lords, many people will understand that if the Government give a guarantee they have a right to some kind of return. On the other hand, is it not a somewhat novel concept that the Government shall advise otherwise assumed independent trustees on how they should behave and on what they should take into account? Is there not a strong case for an independent body to be involved on these occasions?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, of course, those are precisely the kind of issues that we shall be able to discuss in detail when the Bill comes to this House. In the meantime, I can say that the modification powers which are currently included in the Bill are strictly limited.