Bosnia: Arms Embargo (Hansard, 10 January 1994)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, we continue to believe that any relaxation of the UN arms embargo would be a mistake: it would increase the fighting and seriously undermine the humanitarian effort. But we have never ruled out the lifting of the embargo if it becomes clear that there are no prospects for achieving a negotiated peace.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and in particular her assurance that the Government continue to look at the question of lifting the embargo. Is the Minister aware that throughout the whole country there is a dreadful unease when, day after day, the people hear of the continued killing in Sarajevo and when they look at the efforts of our negotiating team whose sole purpose seems to some to be to legalise the conquests of the Serbs and others? Will the Government consult their European partners to reverse their decision and really try to do something about ending this war, which has now been going on for nearly three years?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, no one wishes more than the British Government to find a way to bring an end to this terrible war. We have constantly reminded all parties of their responsibilities: that is, not only the Moslems who this morning cut the Croat pocket in Vitez, but also the Serbs fighting around Sarajevo, as the noble Lord said. During all that we are trying, through the talks which started yesterday in Bonn and other talks which are going on, to find a way to improve the situation on the ground and also to achieve some means of resolving the conflict. We deplore the violations of so many ceasefire agreements and we shall do all that we can, as we did last week, to try to intervene to stop the strikes wherever and by whomsoever they are committed.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in view of all that is going on in Bosnia at the moment, is it not desirable to minimise the amount of arms available to any of the parties there?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter is absolutely right but we understand that arms get in in a variety of ways. Those who re-arm any party are, of course, just prolonging the situation to the disadvantage of all and the death of many. In the meantime, we continue to try to save lives. Last week the ODA delivered 1,200 tonnes of goods to try to keep alive those whom we can reach. But reaching them becomes an increasingly difficult problem.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, according to the Prime Minister in an interview given yesterday, conditions have not been entirely satisfied for air strikes against Serbian positions in Bosnia. Will the Minister tell the House what are those conditions? Have we not now reached the point at which the United Nations should issue an ultimatum to the Serbs to cease shelling Sarajevo or face air strikes?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, on Friday last the British Government, together with the 7 United States Government, spoke with Mr. Milosevic to get the bombardment of Sarajevo stopped. That bombardment was then lessened, although not stopped, after Milosevic had spoken to Karadzic. I understand that political clearance would be needed if there are to be air strikes. The humanitarian aid would then be placed at very grave risk. That is a calculation that we must make extremely carefully. The North Atlantic Council would have to meet if interdiction were to be considered, but the decision to activate air strikes requires the specific authority of the United Nation's Secretary General. I do not believe that we have yet reached that stage. We established the basis for it in the Security Council resolutions and in the August meeting of the North Atlantic Council. Let us hope that it will not come to air strikes.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, I am sorry to pursue the Minister on the issue, but much of what she said in answer to my question concerned the consequences of rather than conditions for air strikes. I accept entirely that the agreement of the Secretary General of the United Nations must be sought. However, I am asking whether or not we have reached the point at which that agreement should be sought. Perhaps the Minister will answer my question as regards what the conditions must be for that point to be reached.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I find it difficult and dangerous to speculate, which is what the noble Baroness asks me to do. I believe that the situation would have been more likely to require air strikes had we not persuaded Milosevic, last Friday, to work on Karadzic. That resulted not in the cessation of the bombardment but a very considerable lessening of it. The bombardment of Sarajevo last week is but one aspect of bombardments all over the Bosnian area. I believe that if we heighten trouble, which is what we do with air strikes, and lessen humanitarian aid in one area, the consequences could be extremely damaging and much more widespread.

§ Lord Gilmour of Craigmillar
My Lords, leaving aside humanitarian aid as regards which all credit is due to the Government and, above all, the British Army, does my noble friend agree that, broadly speaking, there are two positions which are defensible? The first is to do absolutely nothing and to say that if the Yugoslavs wish to kill each other, that is their own affair. The second is to seek to impose a just peace. However, merely to impose an arms embargo, which in the circumstances is grossly discriminatory, and otherwise confine ourselves to fairly futile attempts at mediation is not justifiable.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I understand the concern of my noble friend but in this day of instant media, and even more instant reaction, I do not believe that the do-nothing option is one which we or any other nation in the European Union is prepared to face. We have sought to reach a peace settlement. The talks continue. We shall try to secure a ceasefire and the implementation of it. As the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, said, there may come a time when that seems, to those with far more knowledge than 8 I, not to be possible without delivering air strikes. If that is so, the United Nation's Secretary General and the North Atlantic Council will confer and air strikes may follow.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, the noble Baroness accused noble Lords on this side of the House of speculating. However, I am sure that she knows that yesterday the Prime Minister said that the conditions for air strikes are not yet satisfied. Will she tell us what the conditions are and when they will be satisfied?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, in answering the noble Baroness's second question I tried to explain that had Milosevic refused on Friday to intervene with Karadzic and the level of action had continued at that suffered last week, then the conditions might have been met. However, Milosevic intervened with Karadzic on Friday as a result of British-US intervention. If there is a further reduction in the bombardment of Sarajevo we can say that we have had some effect. In the meantime, we continue with the peace efforts.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, are we to understand that pledges made by Mr. Milosevic are taken seriously by Her Majesty's Government and their friends in view of the constant record of pledges given and broken? Is it not the case that some future military ruler elsewhere in Eastern Europe might say, "The European Union is a push-over. If it cannot tackle Milosevic, it cannot possibly tackle me"?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, as I have now said twice, had Milosevic not reacted to our intervention, it would have been a different situation. That was not a pledge. But I do believe that we should only take seriously the pledge of any single leader anywhere in Bosnia or the rest of that area for the time during which his agreement may last. However, one should not damn the enormous efforts that have been made to bring about a peace by reading across to other areas. Moreover, I believe that that is a question for another time.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, perhaps the Minister can confirm an aspect that worries me. In her answers, the noble Baroness referred to discussions held by the Americans and the British with Mr. Milosevic. She also mentioned the North Atlantic Council and the United Nations Secretary General. However, can the Minister say who is in charge of the world's attempt to achieve some peace in Yugoslavia? There seems to be so many different people, organisations and countries involved that, I suspect, the efforts are damned to lead to an impasse. Can the Minister clarify who exactly is in charge of the world's attempts to seek peace in Yugoslavia?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, the governments of the European Union are obviously in charge of the decisions that they take, as are the individual governments of NATO. So far as concerns the peace negotiations, the European Union has our noble friend Lord Owen as its negotiator and the United Nations has Mr. Stoltenberg. The United Nations 9 Secretary General is obviously in charge of implementing the decisions of the United Nations Security Council on which governments are represented.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the Minister aware that her reply to her noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter was a little naive in that the embargo on arms does not affect the Serbs, who have the arms, equipment and arms factories of the former Yugoslavia? It really affects the Moslem population of Bosnia. Is the Minister further aware that the effect on a thousand million Moslems throughout the world of the apparent preference of the West and Europe for the Serbs and the Croats must cause enormous harm?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I sometimes feel that perhaps it is not understood just how effective, in economic terms, the embargo has been against the Serbs. It has been very effective indeed. The fact that they have arms resources is not feeding the Serb people. The noble Lord also spoke as if the Moslems were without arms and unable to fight. I have to tell the noble Lord that that is simply not true, as we saw only this morning when the Moslems cut through the Croat pocket of Vitez with considerable force. They have pinned down Dutch and Belgian troops, who had to be helped by British troops in Vitez. Whatever is going on, there is certainly no lack of armaments among the Moslems, the Serbs or the Croats.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, but that means that the embargo is quite useless.