Sarajevo (Hansard, 9 February 1994)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Lord Henley)
My Lords, we do not yet have the United Nations figures for the whole of last week. The House will be aware that at least 65 people were killed in one incident in Sarajevo's central market on 5th February. We unreservedly condemn that callous and brutal act.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply and welcome the moves being made to do something about the situation. Is the Minister aware that the efforts of Europe and of NATO are held in contempt in many places, and that they arouse feelings of shame in many citizens of Europe, including in this country? This is the last opportunity to restore credibility to both the United Nations and the European Union.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I am sorry that even in this country the efforts of Europe, NATO and this country are, as the noble Lord puts it, held in contempt. I am not sure that I agree with the noble Lord. I believe that we have contributed a great deal and our soldiers and our civilians have put themselves at considerable risk in providing help to the people of former Yugoslavia. Ultimately, as I am sure the noble Lord will appreciate, peace will only come at the negotiating table but, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, the North Atlantic Council will today consider on the advice of military commanders what pressure can most effectively be applied and how. He went on to say further that if we use air power we must be clear about the objectives of that action.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, I was not referring to the volunteers or our troops serving there. I was referring to the Governments of Europe.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I simply do not accept that. I think the Government have put in a great deal and I further repeat the fact that our soldiers and our civilians have put themselves at considerable risk.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, will my noble friend assure the House that the Government will do everything possible and take great care not to be drawn into one side in a three-sided civil war?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, in the end, as my noble friend said, it is a civil war and therefore it has to be a matter for the various parties to resolve these matters. We will do what we can to provide help and succour, particularly to the people in Sarajevo, and to provide aid but in the end we cannot impose a peace on the three parties.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, I believe it is the turn of the noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees.

§ Lord Merlyn-Rees
My Lords, if close support aircraft are to be authorised—as is stated in the newspapers, I presume as a result of briefing—against guns and mortars around Sarajevo, can we be assured that they will be used properly and that they will be controlled by ground controllers in sight of the target? I ask that question because there has been talk of radar-controlled aircraft flying from north-eastern Italy. However, that will lead to casualties not only among our air crews but among people on the ground. We were horrified at the events of last week, but if these radar-controlled aircraft are used we will suffer casualties among our air crews.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to draw attention to the dangers of the use of air power and that is why I made perfectly clear—and my right honourable friend in another place made perfectly clear —that we will only use air support on the advice of the military commanders on the ground.

§ Lord Craig of Radley
My Lords, in the event that air power is used, would it be the Government's intention to continue to make air power available until such time as a peaceful outcome has been negotiated? If so, how long do the Government estimate that period might be?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble and gallant Lord brings great expertise to these matters but I think he would not expect me to be drawn on them. We have made quite clear that, if necessary, we will use air support on the advice of military commanders on the ground.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, further to my question last Monday about the United Nations' capacity impartially to identify distant weapons, is my noble friend aware that 50 years ago units in the British Army could have pinpointed the offending mortar of last Saturday within minutes of its being fired? Examination of shell holes and craters can only provide a very rough indication of direction. Clearly that is not good enough when the faction forces are occupying miscellaneous areas.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, my noble friend made that point when I repeated the Statement on Monday. Certainly we can take into consideration whether it would be possible by the use of modern technology to bring greater certainty to our knowledge as to where any mortars or shells come from.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, will the noble Lord answer two questions? First, has it been confirmed without any shadow of doubt that the shelling came from Serb guns? Secondly, since Mr. Hurd criticised the "must do something" tendency at the end of last year and again last weekend when he firmly disavowed such sentiments, what has happened for him to change his mind and for the Government to change their mind?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, first, as I made clear on Monday, it is fairly certain that the shell involved in the atrocity at the weekend came from Serb positions, but I cannot say that without any shadow of a doubt. One can only say that that seems to be the case but not that one is 100 per cent. certain.
The noble Lord went on to suggest that my right honourable friend had changed his mind. I do not accept that. We have never believed that external intervention could simply settle the conflict and we do not believe it now. We do believe that the United Nations faces a deteriorating situation and may have to use more muscle to achieve its objectives of providing relief to civilians, deterring attacks on civilians and convincing the parties that a lasting settlement can only be achieved at the negotiating table.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the agreement of the United Nations is necessary before air support commences?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, we believe that it will be possible to make use of air support under the existing United Nations mandate.

§ Lord Chalfont
My Lords, can the Minister give the House an assurance that the Government will not be drawn into the "something must be done" school of foreign policy which hounds the whole of the agenda of foreign policy projected by television cameras and producers? Can he also assure us that if we take part in any military action in Yugoslavia we will know how it is going to end and not just how it is going to begin?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right to draw attention to the dangers of any unwise intervention and the consequent escalation that might result. However, I cannot speculate further on exactly what might be decided at the North Atlantic Council this afternoon and what the council might decide we should do on the advice of our military commanders.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the atrocity last Saturday which has caused people to rethink is only one in a series of horrifying massacres perpetrated largely, though not exclusively, by the Serbs? Does he further agree that the Government are now facing the problem created by their own and their allies' intervention in preventing the Bosnian Moslems from defending themselves through the ill-advised and foolish arms embargo?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not accept what my noble friend said about the embargo. Further, we have never ruled out lifting that embargo if all else fails. But 1568 one ought to stress that that might easily do more harm than good and might easily further escalate the fighting and seriously jeopardise the relief effort mounted by this country and many others.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, if there is to be an ultimatum to the Bosnian Serbs in the near future, as has been reported, can the Minister assure the House that it will be for real and not another empty gesture? Assuming that the Bosnian Serbs accept such an ultimatum, can he also tell the House what plans there are for ensuring that Sarajevo then becomes a demilitarised area?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, these matters are being considered by the North Atlantic Council today. I am confident that that meeting will take decisions but I do not think that it would be wise at this moment to speculate as to exactly what those decisions might be.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, in view of the great interest taken by the Russians in their compatriots the Serbs and the obvious dangers for the Balkans, can my noble friend assure the House that the Russians will be thoroughly consulted so that we do not fall into something much bigger than we expect?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very valid point and I take that on board.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords—

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, perhaps we ought to move on.