THORP: Plutonium Reprocessing (Hansard, 18 October 1993)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, both the THORP plant and the plutonium arising in it will be subject to international safeguards. Her Majesty's Government have no plans to transfer any plutonium from THORP to defence use.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the Minister aware that his Answer means, I think, a confirmation of the view that the product which is intended to come from THORP will primarily be a matter of export and re-export? In that case, is he further aware that the United States defence department has said that in its opinion this trade is very dangerous and will not be at all helpful in relation to non-proliferation? In those circumstances, will the Government reconsider their decision to start THORP?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord can read into my Answer whatever he wants. It was a very plain Answer that the Government have no plans to transfer any plutonium from THORP to defence use. It had no other repercussions.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the United States has tested a nuclear weapon made with reactor-grade plutonium? Therefore, the material which THORP will be returning to Japan and Germany and, if current contract negotiations are successful, to South Korea could quite easily be used for nuclear weapons at any level of technical sophistication. Would the noble Lord care to comment on that?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is not for me to speculate on what nuclear tests may or may not have been carried out by the United States. However, on the broader issue of exports, when considering applications to return plutonium from reprocessing the Government would, of course, not permit that export unless they were confident that no attempt would be made to divert the material for military use.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, it may not be for the Minister to speculate but it is for the Government to know and it is for the Minister to respond, in the light of proper briefings, to the Question that is asked of him.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that is not the case. Government spokesman have consistently refused to speculate on what nuclear tests may or may not have been carried out by the United States.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that the defence authorities in America have 417 attempted to make an atomic bomb out of commercial-grade plutonium and the best that they have been able to achieve so far is what is known as a "fizzle"?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot confirm that because it is not in the public interest to speculate on such matters.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is an awkward question; that it is possible to make bombs from ex-reactor fuel and that whatever the intentions of the governments concerned—the British Government, the Germans or the Japanese—the non-proliferation treaty forbids the export of such material?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it may be possible to make a bomb out of reprocessed material, but that of course depends entirely on its composition.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, of course it depends on its composition. That goes without saying. However, is the noble Lord aware that, while we respect the technical knowledge of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, on these matters, the United States has successfully tested a weapon made of reactor-grade plutonium? THORP will therefore be returning to Japan, Germany and possibly South Korea material which can be used in nuclear weapons. Does the noble Lord think that that is in the interest either of the non-proliferation treaty or of the UK Government?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, whether or not the material from THORP could be used for making a bomb is irrelevant because all plutonium recovered in reprocessing is subject to stringent, internationally accepted standards of safeguards and physical protection.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is none so blind as those who will not see? It is not a question of speculation; it is a question of the Government refusing to accept what is generally known and internationally agreed. Why are they refusing to consider the possibilities which will flow from their decision, if they take it, to open THORP? Is he not aware that one of those possibilities is that the Government will be marching dead against the vast majority of opinion in the world which will be that they are creating a risk which is unacceptable and which they ought not to create?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I do not accept that that is the Government's position.