The Official Report (Hansard, 30 November 1993)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, the price of the daily editions of the Official Report of both Houses in November 1979 was 45 pence per copy. In 1992, the daily Hansard for the House of Lords was priced at £4.20 and that for the Commons at £7.50. The average daily sale of the House of Lords Official Report in 1979 was around 4,000 copies, and in 1992 was 2,200. The corresponding figures for the House of Commons were 6,500 copies and 3,700 copies respectively.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I thank the Government for their unusually clear, accurate and unambiguous reply. However, will the Minister please explain to the House why the price of the daily reports has increased by a very considerable multiple of the rate of inflation that has taken place since the country had the fortune to elect Her Majesty's present Government in 1979? According to the figures that the noble Lord produced, the price of the House of Lords Hansard should now be far less than £2 as distinct from the £4.20 that he gave, and the price of the House of Commons Hansard should be a fraction of the £7.50 that it is today. Can the Minister explain—possibly by reference to the Next Steps prospectus—why it is that the price of those government publications should have increased by such a colossal amount that bears no relationship to the increase in the retail prices index? To date, that is 155 per cent. since 1979.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for the compliment contained in the early part of his questions. However, I hope he realises that both the Government and I always try to answer Questions clearly and unambiguously. The answer to the noble Lord's supplementary question is not nearly as complicated as anything to do with Next Steps; it is simply the result of the reduction of a subsidy of £6 million in 1983, which was reduced to nil in 1992 when it was decided that the full price of the cost of the production of Hansard should be charged.

§ Lord Morris of Castle Morris
My Lords, can the Minister inform the House what consultations have taken place between his department and, first, the Library Association; secondly, the Standing Conference of National and University Libraries; and, thirdly, the Council of Polytechnic Librarians (as it is still called) on the question of the effect of the price on the sales figures of Hansard? Further, what advice was his department given by them?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord what consultation process took place because, apart from anything else, it took place a few years ago. At that time, a decision was finally made to reduce the overall level of subsidy. That of course is one of the reasons why the overall circulation figures have dropped. Many libraries used to receive two or three copies. But now, because of the increase in price, they have decided they need only one.

§ Lord Morris of Castle Morris
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many university libraries are not taking Hansard at all?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that of course is a decision they must make for themselves. However, my experience of university libraries indicates that in many cases they would obtain far better value for money from buying Hansard than from other publications that they buy.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government's decision to remove the subsidy to which he referred will necessitate further factual research on my part? In the meantime, will he 491 explain what are the considerations that allowed the Government deliberately to decide they wanted the circulation of Hansard to decline? Has that anything to do with the exposure of the nakedness of the Government's policies during the periods that I have mentioned?

§ Lord Strathclyde
No, my Lords. The reason was entirely financial. It was decided that Hansard should reflect its real cost of production. I explained earlier why the circulation may well have reduced. The noble Lord should realise that Members of the Opposition are equally represented in the contents of Hansard. Perhaps we should look more at the contents of Hansard rather than at its price to seek reasons for the reduction in circulation.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us are concerned about this matter? Hansard is a record of parliamentary proceedings and not governmental proceedings. The widest possible distribution of Hansard should be encouraged. Is it not a fact that the costs of production of journals such as Hansard reduce as the circulation increases? Would it not be in the best interests of democracy and indeed of economy if the Government and Parliament—Parliament also has a responsibility here—were to see to it that Hansard is priced at a figure which would encourage the circulation to rise rather than to decline?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the noble Lord shares with me the desire to see the maximum circulation of Hansard. For that reason, HMSO is commissioning a market research exercise during the early part of 1994 to see what potential exists for increasing sales of Hansard.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, has the noble Lord ever heard of Commander King-Hall and the efforts that he made to popularise Hansard by establishing the Hansard Society? Is there not a great deal to be said for subsidising Hansard, especially in view of the abysmal reporting of Parliament by the press, particularly of your Lordships' House?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there have been substantial changes in the reporting of Parliament over the course of the past few years. The introduction of television in particular has made Parliament's proceedings far more accessible than was once the case. It is easy for people to obtain a copy of Hansard. I have mentioned libraries and universities that already hold copies of Hansard. There is no reason why anyone should be excluded from being able to see what parliamentary procedures are all about.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that often there are disputes about matters that have sometimes been recorded erroneously in the press? The answer seems to be that if one wants to know the truth one must get hold of a copy of Hansard. There we can read the truth. In that way, one does not have to rely on newspaper or television reports.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the actual recording is carried out by Hansard, which is an arm of the House itself. The printing and publishing is carried out by HMSO, which is an entirely different organisation. HMSO is not involved in the correct interpretation of the rumblings of either House.