Game Licences (Hansard, 30 November 1993)

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we are consulting with interested groups to see whether there is a less burdensome means of achieving the objectives for which the game licences were introduced.

§ Lord Geddes
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that more than mildly encouraging reply. Perhaps I may spur him on in his endeavours. Is he aware that at the end of December last year there were only some 47,000 game licences on issue compared with 700,000 shotgun licences? Does my noble friend not feel that if, even on a conservative estimate, only half of those shooters require game licences, the resultant legality rate of 13 per cent. leaves a lot to be desired? Does he not consider that the situation as regards game licences should either be strongly tightened, perhaps as I suggested in December last year, or that game licences should be abolished altogether?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very valid point, and his figures are fairly, although not exactly, accurate. The figures expose the fact that a large number of people have shotgun licences but not game licences. That is one reason why we are looking seriously at, and having consultations about, the future of the game licence. I was tempted to invite all Members of the House who shoot but who do not have a game licence to stand up, but I thought that that might be far too embarrassing.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, my noble friend says that, but I feel positively antique. I ask my children whether they have a game licence and I invariably find that those aged under 40 never have one. Everyone over 40 has one. Why should the oldies have to pay for the "youngies"?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I shall not comment on whether my noble friend looks or feels like an antique. I suspect that increasingly people do not realise that they should have a game licence as well as a shotgun licence. That exposes the reason why consultations are taking place about the future of that licence.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, the Minister is a fly fisher, especially a salmon fly fisher. There are game fishing licences. Of course, I urge that that game fishing licence should be abolished. However, I recognise that that is impossible. Therefore, will the 488 Minister and the Government not consider increasing the grant-in-aid to the National Rivers Authority so that it can reduce the cost of game fishing licences? That will enable many people who must endure enforced idleness through unemployment to enjoy that sport.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the noble Lord has made a good try but he has gone rather wide of the Question on game licences. Fishing licences are not required in at least one part of the kingdom. That is why, on one occasion when I was fishing in the south, somebody asked me whether I had such a licence and I looked at him in an extremely puzzled way. Therefore, I understand the problem.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, there was a rather obscure phrase in my noble friend's original Answer. He referred to the purposes for which game licences were introduced. Will he let me into the secret and tell me what those purposes were?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the purpose of the present system of game licences for those who kill or deal in game is primarily to prevent poaching and also to ensure compliance with the statutory closed season.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the cost of collection is greater or less than the yield of the tax?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the cost of collection is less, although I must admit that it is only marginally less, than the return obtained from the £6 licence.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, has the noble Lord considered the possibility that a number of people who hold shotgun licences may shoot for game but may also shoot for other purposes? For example, certain Welsh farmers who are my neighbours shoot rabbits and other creatures from time to time with shotguns. What is the distinction between a game licence and a shotgun licence for those purposes?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I must tell the noble Lord that if his neighbours are shooting rabbits, they require a game licence. If they are shooting pigeons, they do not require a game licence. I shall check on that as there is some doubt among my noble friends behind me who no doubt have game licences. In any event, people who shoot, for example, pigeons or clay pigeons do not need game licences. Only those people who shoot pheasants, partridges, grouse and so on require a game licence.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, if the noble Lord is asking about those of us who have a shotgun licence and shoot rabbits, I have to stand up and say that I do not have a game licence. But I may be an antiquity.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the noble Lord is in much the same position that I found myself when I went fishing in England.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that game licences are not required for shooting wild fowl, pigeons or vermin?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the matter is becoming somewhat complicated. My understanding on the three species mentioned by my noble friend is that a game licence would not be required. If I am wrong, I shall write to him.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, my noble friend said that he thought the shooting of rabbits required a game licence. I personally have always been assured by everyone to whom I have ever talked that that is not so. I also understand that the shooting of ground game like hares does not require a game licence. Can my noble friend confirm whether or not that is the case?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am inclined to think, perhaps wrongly, that the shooting of hares requires such a licence. However, I shall check the position and, if I am wrong, I shall write to my noble friend. I should point out to my noble friends that I knew that the Question would not be easy to answer and that I would end up feeling like a slow-flying pheasant going over a line of very accurate guns.

§ Lord Geddes
My Lords, with reference to the supplementary question posed by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, can my noble friend confirm the figures as regards the cost involved? If there are, give or take, 47,000 game licences at issue and, again, if they average, very conservatively, £5 per game licence, that is, crudely, £250,000. I cannot believe that it costs less than £250,000 to collect.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend's calculation about the £250,000 income is correct. However, my answer was also correct because it costs £225,000 to collect.