ID Card System (Hansard, 18 May 1993)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, we are not at present persuaded that the benefits of issuing identification cards outweigh the disadvantages and costs of so doing.

§ Baroness Sharples
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that only last Wednesday a Bill providing for voluntary personal security cards had an unopposed First Reading in the other place? Is he further aware that in 1990 the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended such a 1649 course? The costs of combating crime and terrorism will only increase. If we are to have cards, surely the costs should be borne.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the costs of introducing identification cards would be considerable. It is our experience that the police do not have great difficulty in identifying the names of individuals. It is much more difficult to identify those who are responsible for crime. The issuing of voluntary identification cards would not help fight crime, because those who want to commit crime would not avail themselves of the voluntary option. If we were to make identification cards compulsory, that would be expensive and there are also other drawbacks.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the last public attitudes survey showed that the majority of people were in favour of ID card system; that the Police Federation is also in favour; that the majority of letters and representations to the Home Office also show that the public are in favour; and that eight countries within the Common Market already have a voluntary or mandatory system, and no doubt it will come here? Finally, surely the Minister will agree that an ID card system would help control illegal immigration and help the police to combat crime, drug trafficking and terrorism.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mason of Barnsley, is a firm advocate of the ID card system. He has encapsulated succinctly the reasons for so being, but there are drawbacks. The cost of making the scheme compulsory would be substantial. The ID card would have to be free. We would have to give the police increased statutory powers. They could well produce difficulties for police/public relations. The civil liberties argument would be strong, because people would be required to stop at random and be asked to produce their ID card. People do not always want to carry such documents in the streets the whole time. We would have to introduce a penalty for not carrying a card. All those are strong reasons for not having ID cards. Obviously if there were a system, it would assist in some of the respects to which the noble Lord referred.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does my noble friend recollect that when compulsory ID cards were abolished after the war there was a cry of relief from the general public? To reintroduce them would cause more objections than have hitherto been suggested in the Question and answers.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is right. When the system was abolished in 1952, it was given up with great alacrity. I agree with him. I believe that there would be a rumpus if the scheme were reintroduced.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, has the Minister access to any figures illustrating the number of prosecutions a year in, let us say, France, for not carrying ID cards? How many of those lead to a prosecution for crime?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, will realise that I can only do my best to answer in respect of the position in the United Kingdom. I cannot answer for that in France.

§ Lord Wigoder
My Lords, does the Minister recall any terrorist offence which would not have taken place if the terrorists had been required to carry ID cards?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, offhand, no.

§ Lord Merlyn-Rees
My Lords, in the Minister's consideration of this matter, irrespective of what is done in Great Britain, will he bear in mind that in Northern Ireland there is a sizeable group of people which is pretty good at duplication? Further, will he bear in mind that one-third of the population of Northern Ireland would not co-operate; that a sizeable group of people travel on Southern Irish passports; and that during the war we could not introduce conscription in Northern Ireland? Let us not pretend that Northern Ireland is the same as Great Britain. I am against the scheme there as well. We would learn the lesson in Northern Ireland if we tried to introduce ID cards there.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the points which the noble Lord, Lord Merlyn-Rees, makes are correct. If we were to introduce a system of ID cards, it would have to be a secure one to prevent forgery and duplication —points to which he referred.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, is the Minister aware that he is playing into the hands of the "wets" in this country by saying that people keen on civil liberties would object to such a system? What about all those people who are blown up by IRA bombs and whose buildings are blown up? ID cards would need to be carried by people in the UK only and not in Northern Ireland. The cards should also have photographs on them. Then, a person sitting in a parked lorry in the middle of the City in the middle of the night, asked by a policeman, "Show me your identity card. Where is your photograph?", could be taken away if he did not have a card.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wyatt, accuses me of playing into the hands of the "wets" in this country. Of course no one likes being blown up; but my experience is that neither do they like being stopped for traffic offences. If the noble Lord was stopped twice in the course of a week and asked to show his ID card, I am sure that he, as would many other people, would find it aggravating.

§ Lord Morris of Castle Morris
My Lords, have the Government any estimates of how much it would cost in any given year to introduce an ID scheme? Are there any other schemes being considered by the Government against which an ID card scheme could be compared?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the best estimate that we can give is that an ID card would cost about the same as a passport, which is about £15 to £20 per person. That excludes the start-up costs which would involve premises and a whole regime of people to operate the scheme. For those reasons, a scheme would be difficult 1651 to introduce. We are looking at every conceivable method of trying to prevent terrorism in this country, but ID cards do not feature high on the list.