HL Deb 18 March 1993 vol 543 cc1606-15

7.15 p.m.

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)

My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons amendments be now considered.

Moved, That the Commons amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS

[References are to Bill [83] as first printed for the Commons.] 1 Clause 10, page 11, line 5, after 'provision' insert '(a)'. 2 Page 11, line 8 at end insert '; or (b) imposing conditions with respect to the exercise by any such person of any entitlement (whether or not under paragraph (a) above) which he may have to make any such voluntary contributions.'. 3 Page 11, line 35, leave out from 'of', to end of line 37 and insert 'any authorised provider who is, or may he, concerned in the investment of the voluntary contributions or the provision of the additional benefits in question.'. 4 Page 12, line 8, after 'scheme' insert 'constituted by this Part'. 5 Page 12, line 14, at end insert: 'but paragraphs (c) and (d) above have effect only in relation to a voluntary contributions scheme constituted by or under this Part.'. 6 Page 12, line 27, leave out 'paid' and insert 'made'. 7 Page 12, line 29, after 'rights' insert '(i). 8 Page 12, line 31, at end insert 'or (ii) under any voluntary contributions scheme which, on termination of his membership of that scheme, may fall to be transferred into another scheme;'. 9 Page 12, line 42, at end insert: '(k) specify any authorised providers—

  1. (i) who are to invest any prescribed voluntary contributions, or
  2. (ii) who are to provide any prescribed additional benefits, and, if two or more authorised providers are so specified, may make provision entitling any person who makes prescribed payments by way of voluntary contributions to elect between those authorised providers.'.
10 Page 12, line 48, leave out from 'Parliament' to end of line 4 on page 13. 11 Page 13, line 15, at end insert: 'authorised provider", in relation to the investment of any sums paid by way of voluntary contributions or the provision of any benefit, means a person who is authorised under Chapter III of Part I of the Financial Services Act 1986 to invest those sums or, as the case may be, to provide that benefit;'. 12 Page 13, line 20, at end insert 'or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1975;'. 13 Page 13, line 22, at end insert 'or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1986;', 14 Page 13, line 40, leave out 'or personal'. 15 Page 13, line 43, at end insert: 'and, where a person's voluntary contributions are made by deduction from salary, any reference to payment of, or by way of, voluntary contributions shall be taken to include a reference to the making of voluntary contributions by deduction or, as the case may require, to any voluntary contributions so made.'. 16 Page 13, line 46, at end insert: '(10) Without prejudice to subsections (5) (c) and (d) and (6) (a) above, they may be paid out of money provided by Parliament—
  1. (a) any sums required for or in connection with the operation or administration of any prescribed voluntary contributions scheme;
  2. (b) any administrative expenses incurred under or by virtue of this section by a Minister of the Crown or government department.
 (11) Any sums received under this section may be paid into the Consolidated Fund.'.

The Lord Chancellor

I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 16 en bloc. The amendments to Clause 10 are purely technical. They are drafting and clarificatory amendments. They do not alter the substance of the clause and have no new policy implications. One of their main aims is to ensure that the clause provides in practice the necessary regulation-making powers to cover the 3 varieties of voluntary contribution scheme which will fall within its scope; the additional voluntary contributions scheme; free-standing additional voluntary contributions schemes; and the purchase of added years. In particular they are directed at making sure the powers are appropriate to regulate free-standing additional voluntary contribution schemes which the existing draft of the clause somewhat overlooks. Other amendments are designed to ensure that administration costs are charged on the appropriate central Government fund. The remainder serve purely stylistic and clarificatory purposes. Unless there are any detailed points on specific amendments, I move Amendments Nos. 1 to 16 en bloc.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 1 to 16 en bloc.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

Baroness Mallalieu

My Lords, I am personally grateful to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for his helpful note of explanation to the amendments which I was able to see before this evening. It has been of great assistance to those noble Lords who, like me, have been seeking to understand them, I accept that they are purely technical drafting and clarificatory amendments and as such they have our support.

Lord Meston

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his explanation and comments and we support the amendments.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

17 Clause 11, page 14, line 4, leave out 'that' and insert:

  1. '(i) any scheme established by regulations under section 10 above which may fall to be regarded as a judicial pension scheme; and
  2. (ii) the scheme'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 17.

This is a technical amendment. The voluntary contribution schemes established under, or regulated by, Clause 10 will be (by virtue of the definition of 'judicial pensions schemes' in Clause 30) judicial pension schemes in their own right. Clause 11(1) (a) prohibits judges who are members of the new pension scheme from deriving pension benefits from more than one judicial pension scheme (except that they may also derive benefit from the top-up scheme established under Clause 19). The clause as drafted therefore appears to prevent a judge who joins the new scheme from earning pension benefits under a voluntary contribution scheme regulated by Clause 10. That is obviously not the Government's intention and the amendment rectifies this impression.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 17).—(The Lord Chancellor.)

Baroness Mallalieu

My Lords, we support the amendment. It clearly does not reflect the intention of the Bill and we welcome the alteration.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS

18 Clause 26, page 23, line 45, after 'order' insert

'(a)'.

19 Page 23, line 46, at end insert '; or (b) amend subsection (8) above by adding offices to those for the time being specified in that subsection.'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 en bloc. These are technical drafting amendments which rectify an earlier oversight and will enable the appropriate Minister by order to add to the list of "one-off" posts in Clause 26(8) of the Bill as well as to the list of posts of an ongoing nature in Schedule 5.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 en bloc.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

20 Clause 31, page 28, line 10, leave out subsection (8).

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 20. This amendment is to remove the standing 'privilege' amendment inserted by your Lordships at Third Reading.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 20—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

21 Schedule 2, page 31, line 43, at end insert: occupational pension scheme" has the meaning given by section 66(1) of the Social Security Pensions Act 1975 or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1975;'. personal pension scheme" has the meaning given by section 84(1) of the Social Security Act 1986 or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1986;'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 21. This technical amendment serves to define the terms "occupational pension scheme" and "personal pension scheme" as they are used in Schedule 2 which deals with the transfer of accrued pension benefits in and out of the new pension arrangements. The definitions follow those used in Clause 10.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 21—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS

22 Schedule 3, page 38, line 7, after '(1)' insert 'after the word "provision" there shall be inserted "(a)" and'.

23 Page 38, line 8, at end insert '; or (b) imposing conditions with respect to the exercise by any such person of any entitlement (whether or not under paragraph (a) above) which he may have to make any such voluntary contributions.".'.

24 Page 38, line 34, leave out from 'of,' to end of line 36 and insert 'any authorised provider who is, or may be, concerned in the investment of the voluntary contributions or the provision of the additional benefits in question.".'.

25 Page 38, line 43, at end insert: (4A) At the end of that subsection there shall be added the words— but paragraphs (c) and (d) above have effect only in relation to a voluntary contributions scheme constituted by or under this Act or the Sheriffs' Pensions (Scotland) Act 1961.".'.

26 Page 39, line 1, leave out 'paid' and insert 'made'.

27 Page 39, line 3, after 'rights' insert '(i)'.

28 Page 39, line 4, at end insert 'or (ii) under any voluntary contributions scheme which, on termination of his membership of that scheme, may fall to be transferred into another scheme;'.

29 Page 39, line 15, at end insert: (k) specify any authorised providers—

  1. (i) who are to invest any prescribed voluntary contributions, or
  2. (ii) who are to provide any prescribed additional benefits, and if two or more authorised providers are so specified, may make provision entitling any person who makes prescribed payments by way of voluntary contributions to elect between those authorised providers.".'.

30 Page 39, line 24, leave out from 'Parliament' to end of line 28.

31 Page 39, line 42, at end insert: 'authorised provider", in relation to the investment of any sums paid by way of voluntary contributions or the provision of any benefit, means a person who is authorised under Chapter III of Part I of the Financial Services Act 1986 to invest those sums or, as the case may be, to provide that benefit;'.

32 Page 39, line 50, at end insert 'or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1975;'.

33 Page 40, line 2, at end insert 'or, in relation to Northern Ireland, Article 2(2) of the Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1986;'.

34 Page 40, line 23, leave out 'or personal'.

35 Page 40, line 26, at end insert: 'and, where a person's voluntary contributions are made by deduction from salary, any reference to payment of, or by way of, voluntary contributions shall be taken to include a reference to the making of voluntary contributions by deduction or, as the case may require, to any voluntary contributions so made. (10) Without prejudice to subsections (3) (c) and (d) and (4A) (a) above, there may be paid out of money provided by Parliament—

  1. (a) any sums required for or in connection with the operation or administration of any prescribed voluntary contributions scheme; or
  2. (b) any administrative expenses incurred under or by virtue of this section by a Minister of the Crown or government department.
(11) Any sums received under this section may be paid into the Consolidated Fund.'.

36 Page 43, line 21, after '(1) insert 'after the word "provision" there shall be inserted "(a)" and'.

37 Page 43, line 22, at end insert '; or (b) imposing conditions with respect to the exercise by any such person of any entitlement (whether or not under paragraph (a)) which he may have to make any such voluntary contributions.".'.

38 Page 43, line 48, leave out from 'of' to end of line 50 and insert 'any authorised provider who is, or may be, concerned in the investment of the voluntary contributions or the provision of the additional benefits in question.".'.

39 Page 44, line 7, at end insert: (4A) At the end of that subsection there shall be added the words— but paragraphs (c) and (d) have effect only in relation to a voluntary contributions scheme constituted by or under this Act.".'.

40 Page 44, line 18, leave out 'paid' and insert 'made'.

41 Page 44, line 20, after 'rights' insert '(i)'.

42 Page 44, line 22, at end insert 'or (ii) under any voluntary contributions scheme which, on termination of his membership of that scheme, may fall to be transferred into another scheme;'.

43 Page 44, line 33, at end insert: (j) specify any authorised providers—

  1. (i) who are to invest any prescribed voluntary contributions, or
  2. (ii) who are to provide any prescribed additional benefits, and, if two or more authorised providers are so specified, may make provision entitling any person who makes prescribed payments by way of voluntary contributions to elect between those authorised providers.".'.

44 Page 44, line 43, leave out from 'Kingdom' to end of line 48.

45 Page 45, line 7, at end insert: 'authorised provider", in relation to the investment of any sums paid by way of voluntary contributions or the provision of any benefit, means a person who is authorised under Chapter III of Part I of the Financial Services Act 1986 to invest those sums or, as the case may be, to provide that benefit;'.

46 Page 45, line 38, leave out 'or personal'.

47 Page 45, line 41, at end insert: and, where a persons voluntary contributions are made by deduction from salary, any reference to payment of, or by way of, voluntary contributions shall be taken to include a reference to the making of voluntary contributions by deduction, or as the case may require, to any voluntary contributions so made. (8) Without prejudice to subsections (3) (c) and (d) and (4A) (a), there may be paid out of money provided by the Parliament of the United Kingdom—

  1. (a) any sums required for or in connection with the operation or administration of any prescribed voluntary contributions scheme; or
  2. (b) any administrative expenses incurred under or by virtue of this section by a Minister of the Crown or government department.
(9) Any sums received under this section may be paid into the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 22 to 47 en bloc. Schedule 3 makes minor and consequential amendments to the legislation governing the existing pensions arrangements for the judiciary. In particular it amends the Judicial Pensions Act 1981 to ensure that the provisions of that Act relating to additional voluntary contribution schemes (which have not yet been brought into force) are workable and can now be brought into force at the same time as the analogous provisions of this Bill. Amendments Nos. 22 to 47 duplicate the amendments we have already agreed to Clause 10 of this Bill in respect of the existing pension arrangements.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 22 to 47 en bloc.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

Baroness Mallalieu

My Lords, in supporting these amendments, I understand that if the Bill completes its final stages and receives Royal Assent, it is still unlikely that it will come into force before the end of 1993 because there would appear to be a great deal of work still to be done in relation to the regulations, much of it of an actuarial nature. In view of the welcome recent announcement by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that there are likely to be further appointments to the High Court Bench in the near future, and which one hopes will take place before the end of 1993, it is clearly desirable that these provisions should be in force.

Perhaps I may add that, notwithstanding these amendments made in another place, many of us continue to have anxieties which were expressed by a number of noble and learned Lords at Second Reading of this Bill about the effects of certain of its provisions, in particular those in relation to recruitment and judicial staleness. We hope greatly that, notwithstanding these amendments, those fears will in time prove to be unfounded. We support the amendments.

Lord Renton

My Lords, I am glad to support these amendments. I have one minor query as regards two of them, and it is the same point in each. If noble Lords will look at Amendment No. 35, at the top of page 5, which is the new paragraph (11), it states: Any sums received under this section may be paid into the Consolidated Fund". If we look at the final two lines of Amendment No. 47, we find the same provision. That puzzles me because either the sums have to be paid into the Consolidated Fund or not. If they are not paid into that fund, into which fund might they go?

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, perhaps I may first say a word or two about the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu. I am aware of the anxieties that were expressed. I have explained at some length our view of them. The provisions of Clause 10 and the amendments which have been made there, and also these amendments, are designed to deal with a situation which was brought to our attention; namely, the possibility that a person appointed to judicial office might not be able to take advantage, fully at least, of the retained benefits provision.

One of the reasons why the 1981 Act provision has not been brought into force is that the view of the Inland Revenue was that, by the nature of the judicial pension scheme, it was most unlikely that there would be any scope for additional contributions under that provision. In the course of discussions on this Bill, I was able to persuade the Inland Revenue that at least there might be some cases in which such a provision as this would be useful. In that situation the point which is dealt with in Clause 10 and subsequently, is an important addition to the reasons which were given at the very beginning of consideration of this Bill about what the situation was.

As regards the point on the Consolidated Fund, I believe that the reason for this provision is that sums under that section might be appropriately payable into either the Consolidated Fund or into the ordinary Vote Fund. It is necessary to have power to pay them into the Consolidated Fund. That is my understanding of the position, so the power is all that is required.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS

48 Schedule 4, page 47, line 13, leave out 'and'.

49 Page 47, line 16, at end insert 'and (d) for the purpose of determining, in the event of his death, the rate of any surviving spouse's or children's pension payable under sections 5 to 8 of that Act in respect of his service as Comptroller, as if references in those sections to the annual rate of the deceased's judicial pension were references—

  1. (i) where a pension had commenced to be paid to him by virtue of subsection (5) above, to the appropriate annual rate of that pension; or
  2. (ii) where no such pension had commenced to be paid to him, to the rate that would have been the appropriate annual rate of the pension payable to him by virtue of subsection (5) (b) above, had he not died, but been disabled by permanent infirmity for the performance of the duties of his office on and after the date of death;:

50 Page 47, line 19, leave out from 'sections' to end of line 20.

51 Page 50, line 19, leave out 'and'.

52 Page 50, line 22, at end insert 'and (d) for the purpose of determining, in the event of his death, the rate of any surviving spouse's or children's pension payable under sections 5 to 8 of that Act in respect of his service as Commissioner, as if references in those sections to the annual rate of the deceased's judicial pension were references—

  1. (i) where a pension had commenced to be paid to him by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) above, to the appropriate annual rate of that pension; or
  2. (ii) where no such pension had commenced to be paid to him, to the rate that would have been the appropriate annual rate of the pension payable to him by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) (b) above, had he not died, but been disabled by permanent infirmity for the performance of the duties of his office on and after the date of death;'.

53 Page 50, line 25, leave out from 'sections' to '13' in line 26.

54 Page 53, line 15, leave out '107' and insert '91'.

55 Page 54, line 26, leave out 'and'.

56 Page 54, line 29, at end insert 'and (d) for the purpose of determining, in the event of his death, the rate of any surviving spouse's or children's pension payable under sections 5 to 8 of that Act in respect of his service as Comptroller and Auditor General, as if references in those sections to the annual rate of the deceased's judicial pension were references—

  1. (i) where a pension had commenced to be paid to him by virtue of paragraph (4), to the appropriate annual rate of that pension; or
  2. (ii) where no such pension had commenced to be paid to him, to the rate that would have been the appropriate annual rate of the pension payable to him by virtue of paragraph (4) (b), had he not died, but been disabled by permanent infirmity for the performance of the duties of his office on and after the date of death;'.

57 Page 54, line 32, leave out from 'sections' to '13' in line 33.

58 Page 57, line 26, leave out 'and'.

59 Page 57, line 29, at end insert 'and (d) for the purpose of determining, in the event of his death, the rate of any surviving spouse's or children's pension payable under sections 5 to 8 of that Act in respect of his service as Commissioner, as if references in those sections to the annual rate of the deceased's judicial pension were references—

  1. (i) where a pension had commenced to be paid to him by virtue of sub-paragraph (1), to the appropriate annual rate of that pension; or
  2. (ii) where no such pension had commenced to be paid to him, to the rate that would have been the appropriate annual rate of the pension payable to him by virtue of sub-paragraph (1) (b), had he not died, but been disabled by permanent infirmity for the performance of the duties of his office on and after the date of death;.

60 Page 57, line 32, leave out from 'sections' to '13' in line 33.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 48 to 60 en bloc. These are purely technical amendments. Schedule 4 permits the Comptroller and Auditor General (and the other senior public investigative officers listed in Clause 25) to elect under certain circumstances to join the new pension arrangements. However, the schedule, as drafted, does not contain the definitions necessary to enable surviving spouses' and children's pensions in respect of those officers to be calculated. The amendments rectify this by inserting definitions of the annual rate of an officer's pension at four different places in the schedule. It is by reference to the annual rate of an officer's pension that his or her spouse's or children's pension will be calculated. Amendment No. 54 corrects a reference to the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 48 to 60 en bloc.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

61 Schedule 8, page 88, line 22, after 'effect),' insert in paragraph 3,'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 61. This is a purely technical amendment which modifies a reference to the Administration of Justice Act 1973.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 61.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT

62 Page 89, line 21, leave out from 'words' to end of line 23 and insert "qualifying judicial office, within the meaning of the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993.".'.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62. This is another minor technical amendment. Paragraph 15 of Schedule 8 is a consequential amendment to Section 93 of the Supreme Court Act 1981. That section identifies the persons who are eligible for a judicial pension. The existing amendment identifies those persons listed in Schedule 1 to this Bill as being eligible for a judicial pension. However, only those persons who hold offices listed in Schedule 1 on a salaried basis are to be eligible for a judicial pension under the new arrangements. Amendment No. 62, therefore, refines the existing amendment to Section 93 of the 1981 Act to refer to "qualifying judicial office", a term the use of which in this Bill is limited to salaried office holders who are eligible for a judicial pension.

Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.