Unemployment Figures (Hansard, 15 July 1993)

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Turner, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper:
Whether instructions have been issued to staff at local Department of Employment benefit offices to reduce by administrative means the numbers receiving unemployment benefit.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Employment (Viscount Ullswater)
My Lords, no one who is entitled to claim unemployment benefit is discouraged from doing so. Instructions issued to local office staff of the Employment Service require them to give people positive help to get back into employment.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, is the Minister aware that one of the strangest features of the present time is that we still read of huge job losses but that unemployment figures continue to decrease? Despite what he said, will the Minister give a categoric assurance that benefit office staff are not encouraging people to claim sickness and invalidity benefit rather than unemployment benefit?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, there is no truth in the claim that the Employment Service is operating a deliberate policy of denying eligible claimants of their rightful benefits or pressurising claimants into claiming alternative benefits. There were fewer claims for invalidity benefit and sickness benefit in the first quarter of this year than in the first quarter of last year.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that over the years a series of charges has been made that the figures are manipulated? Will he give a categoric assurance that that has never been and is not the case?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, the whole point of the seasonally adjusted series of figures is that they should be consistent over a long period of time.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, the Minister will, I am sure, agree that there is a considerable difference between the term "unemployed and claiming benefit" and those actually unemployed.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, there are various definitions of "unemployed". This country uses two: the ILO series, and the claimants' series which is published today.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, has my noble friend had an opportunity to read today a report from the Employment Policy Institute which says that it found little convincing evidence that the Government had conducted an administrative fiddle to make the figures more acceptable? Is not what we are seeing a smokescreen to disguise that other piece of information published today; namely, that the unemployment figures have fallen for the fifth month in a row?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, yes, that, of course, is good news for this country, coming on top of yesterday's figures for the retail prices index showing that inflation had fallen to 1.2 per cent. On Tuesday we published figures on manufacturing output, which was up 3 per cent. on a year ago. That is good news for the economy, individuals and Britain.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is pleasing to note that unemployrnent has come down once again this month? To what extent are the long-term unemployment figures coming down? Secondly, on the figures that have been produced by the department today, is it not still disturbing to note that the loss of employment in manufacturing industry continues, and that 245,000 jobs have gone in the past 12 months? There does not seem to be much sign of an industrial increase there.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, no, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mason, that losses of manufacturing jobs are still occurring. However, what is important is to note that manufacturing output is increasing. That continues the long-term trend since the 1960s when we lost nearly 3 million jobs in manufacturing. Some have been reclassified, but the most important point is that manufacturing output is now increasing.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me that as a practising NHS general practitioner during the past few years a number of patients have asked me to put them on to the invalidity list? They say they have been told to do so by their local employment officer. Those people had not thought that their minor illnesses were sufficient for them to claim sickness benefit, but they had been advised to see the doctor to be put on the sick list. I can give names if the Minister would like them.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, all members of the public are entitled to make a claim for unemployment benefit, but some may not be eligible. The Employment Service research advisers seek to ensure that clients are capable of work. It is for the clients to decide whether to seek a medical opinion of their capability.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, has the Minister noted that those pieces of good news are due mainly to the fall in the exchange rate last September which the Government did their best to resist?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, that does not affect the good news on retail sales which are up 3 per cent. on a year ago; car registrations up 11 per cent. on a year ago; and housing starts up 17 per cent. on a year ago. There is a great deal of good news about.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, how many times since 1979 has the definition of eligibility for benefit been changed? What is the department's current estimate of how much higher the level of unemployment, as measured by eligibility for benefit, would be now had those definitions not been changed?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, as I said in reply to an earlier question, the consistent seasonally adjusted employment series gives a comparable assessment of trends over time. It is not possible to record the figures as suggested by the noble Lord. There have been adjustments to the figures over the past 15 years or so as there were in the 15 years before that.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that his reply to my noble friend Lord Rea was less than satisfactory? Is he further aware —I am sure that he is—that the Government have been complaining about the number of people who have been claiming invalidity benefit? I should like the assurance that benefit officers are not recommending people who they know are well to see their doctor so that he can pronounce them unfit in order that they may obtain invalidity benefit.

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord is suggesting that doctors will take that decision when someone—

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, no, no—benefit officers.

§ Viscount Ullswater
—is not fit. In answer to a previous question, I suggested that there were fewer claims for invalidity benefit and sickness benefit in the first quarter of this year than in the first quarter of last year.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, in his earlier replies, the Minister gave assurances that the unemployment figures had not been fiddled or rigged. Would he care to use part of the Summer Recess to read the diaries of Alan Clark, who made it clear that at his time in the Department of Employment the numbers were being rigged to reduce apparent unemployment figures? Does the Minister agree with me that common English usage indicates that "unemployment" means those who are out of work and looking for work (as it was until September 1982) rather than those who are successfully claiming benefit. which has been the definition since then?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, no, I do not believe that there is a common definition of "unemployment". 338 Many people in full-time education say that they are unemployed because they say they are looking for short-term, part-time jobs.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a problem in defining "eligiblity" as regards unemployment benefit, because people who undertake work for voluntary organisations while they are unemployed are defined as not being available for work? Does the Minister agree that voluntary work keeps people in the community and keeps their minds alive and that they are prepared to stop that work immediately a job becomes available? Is it right that they should be deterred from claiming unemployment benefit?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, the situation is, perhaps, the reverse. They are not deterred from claiming unemployment benefit but the rules of eligibility—that they should be prepared to take on work when it is offered to them—make their entitlement secure. The noble Countess said that they are not able to claim unemployment benefit, but they can do so.

§ Lord Whaddon
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is ridiculous for anyone to suggest that the unemployment figures are in any way fiddled; they are just genuinely appalling?

§ Viscount Ullswater
My Lords, of course. I have not indicated that the Government are complacent about the unemployment figures. Indeed, they are not. We wish to see the economy grow stronger and as a result more job opportunities occurring.