HL Deb 01 July 1993 vol 547 cc930-2

3.26 p.m.

Lord Jenkins of Putney asked Her Majesty's Government:

What are the conditions which must be met before they will be able to get rid of their nuclear weapons as aspired to by Baroness Chalker of Wallasey [H.L. Deb., col. 282, 26th May 1993].

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)

My Lords, for as long as our security continues to depend on the possession of nuclear weapons, Her Majesty's Government are committed to maintaining a minimum deterrent.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

Precisely, my Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Chalker, is not with us this afternoon. I hope that that is not due to anything untoward. I am now glad to see that she is here, if not on the Front Bench. Is it not the case that she expressed the Government's desire to be rid of nuclear weapons under certain conditions? I ask the noble Viscount whether he will be so good as to spell out the conditions which will enable the Government to dispose of the nuclear weapons of which they have expressed the desire to rid us.

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, as always, my noble friend and I are at one on matters of government policy. 1 may quote my noble friend exactly when she said that Her Majesty's Government would get rid of nuclear weapons, only when it is safe to do so".—[Official Report, 26/5/93; col. 282.] The element of uncertainty and lack of precision in itself contributes to the power of deterrence.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, will the noble Viscount agree that the nub of the matter is the non-proliferation treaty and the review conference, which will he coming up fairly soon? In the matter referred to by my noble friend in his Question, the noble Baroness, Lady Chalker, said that the UK delegation, delivered a statement reaffirming our aim to secure the treaty's unconditional, indefinite extension in 1995 and our commitment to support continuing progress towards nuclear disarmament".—[Official Report, 26/5/93; col. 280.] I am sure that we all agree with those sentiments. However, given that President Clinton, as I understand it from today's Independent, is on the point of announcing that there will be no further testing in the United States, unless another nuclear power did so first, where does that leave our own nuclear deterrent, of which the noble Viscount is so fond?

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Williams, is as aware as I am that the United States administration—allies whom we greatly value, as I know the noble Lord does—is reviewing testing policy. We are in close touch with them and it would be entirely wrong to speculate on the conclusions of that review until an announcement is made.

Lord Ewing of Kirkford

My Lords, will the Minister say whether it is still the Government's intention to complete the programme of four Trident submarines?

Viscount Cranborne

Yes, my Lords.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, in the light of our discussions over the past few days in this House, and as long as the Government feel it necessary to have nuclear weapons, will the noble Viscount give an absolute assurance that only Britain's finger will be on the nuclear trigger, and that no part will be played at any time ever in the future by the Council of Ministers or the Commission?

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, the noble Lord tempts me strangely. I merely reiterate that the nuclear deterrent possessed by this country is an independent one and will continue to remain so.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, how will the noble Viscount square that answer with the inability to test in Nevada if that is the case? Does he agree that it is no longer independent; that we rely on the United States for testing?

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, I shall not give the noble Lord an answer in a speculative mode now, any more than I did a few moments ago. 1 merely emphasise to the noble Lord that testing has always played a genuine and important part in maintaining the safety and reliability of nuclear weapons. In the event of a test-free world, the challenge would be to develop alternative techniques and a fully adequate substitute.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is not the truth of the matter that the reason that the noble Viscount has not given an answer to my noble friend Lord Williams is that he does not have an answer? Will he address himself to the question of the necessity of accuracy in these matters? If he says that we shall get rid of our nuclear weapons when it is safe to do so, is he entirely unable to spell out any part of the circumstances that would enable him to say that it is safe?

Viscount Cranborne

My Lords, I am entirely unable to do so because to do so would give comfort and aid to our enemies.

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