Executive Agencies (Hansard, 19 January 1993)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, there are currently 76 executive agencies in existence, together with 30 executive units of Customs and Excise and 34 executive offices of the Inland Revenue which operate fully on Next Steps lines. A further 13 agencies are expected to be launched during April 1993. The agency programme has involved significant organisational and cultural changes in the way government departments work. However, the legal position of the operations concerned is unchanged and Ministers remain fully accountable for them.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. In view of the fact that such a substantial amount of work has been transferred from the day-to-day responsibility of Ministers, will there be a reduction in the number of junior Ministers in order to obtain value for money?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, the question of Ministers is a matter for my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. However, it is worth pointing out that in his original report Sir Robin Ibbs indicated that he thought that Ministers were overworked and overloaded. He envisaged that the creation of agencies would allow Ministers to concentrate more on strategic and longer-term issues rather than the day-to-day management issues. 813 Therefore, Sir Robin Ibbs did not envisage what the noble Lord suggests, but that is a matter for the Prime Minister.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that we are grateful for anything which means that the Government will concentrate on long-term aims and strategy? Is it right that by April of this year the number of civil servants in Next Steps agencies will amount to 60 per cent of the total strength of the Civil Service? Is he really satisfied that the rules and restrictions applicable to civil servants will continue to apply to those working in Next Steps agencies?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition for suggesting that we might be able to concentrate on longer-term issues. I hope that I can have his co-operation in those matters in future months. I do not want to bandy figures. My brief says that currently nearly 300,000 civil servants—over half the total—are working in those agencies, so our figures are not very different. I am satisfied that they remain civil servants. They are covered by Civil Service long-term pay agreements. I believe that they can continue to exercise all the responsibilities of a civil servant while working in a Next Steps agency.

§ Lord Ewing of Kirkford
My Lords, in view of the fact that the agency that has Rosyth dockyard is being considered in relation to the repair and refit of the Trident nuclear submarine, will the noble Lord make sure that the Prime Minister understands that Rosyth dockyard is entitled to be and should be kept open for the refit of the Trident nuclear submarine in order to preserve that agency?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, the noble Lord has lost none of his ingenuity in the many years that I have known him. However, his question enables me to repeat that policy decisions are still matters for Ministers. The policy with regard to the issue, about which I know nothing at this stage, is a matter for Ministers and is not a matter for the agency.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one way in which the use of executive agencies can lead not only to greater efficiency in government but also to more democracy in government is that where possible they should be subject to a governing body of people appointed from outside who have an outside view, have lay experience and sometimes specialist experience? One of the functions of such a governing body would be constantly to consider the continued need for, relevance of and priority to be accorded to the existence of the operations of the agency.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I have a deal of sympathy with what my noble friend says. I am not sure whether it is for me to be sure about the exact way in which to achieve that knowledge and experience from the outside within these agencies, but I think my noble friend will agree that the appointment of chief executives has been a good help in that way. Of 90 814 chief executive appointments to date, 58 came from within the Civil Service by open competition and 32 came from outside the Civil Service, so there is a leavening of outside experience as well as making use of the best from inside.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, would the noble Lord the Leader of the House reject the suggestion implicit in the question of his noble friend, which is that Next Steps agencies should be responsible to governing bodies? Will he confirm that they will continue to be responsible to Ministers, and therefore continue to be accountable in Parliament?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, they will continue to be responsible to Ministers, and Ministers will continue to be accountable to Parliament. That is absolutely true. That is not to say that there is not a considerable degree of advice and experience from the outside world which could usefully be sought and used in delivering better services to the taxpayer and to the consumers of these services.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I accept what the Leader of the House has said about the position of the Prime Minister in this matter, but would he not agree that, given the fact that many thousands of public servants have lost their jobs in the last few years in order to achieve value for money, it would seem a little odd to many that one group of people who are excluded from this particular consideration are politicians?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, the object of the exercise is to get better services to the public, to make it better for the staff within the agencies, and to get benefit to the taxpayer. They are very worthwhile tasks, and I believe that it will be of great benefit to Ministers, who are better able to concentrate on longer-term issues. While it is, I repeat, in fact a matter for the Prime Minister—and I agree with the Prime Minister—I do not believe that it is inherent in the creation of these Next Steps agencies that there would be less work for Ministers.