HL Deb 19 October 1992 vol 539 cc597-9

2.50 p.m.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many police forces have introduced (a) speed cameras and (b) traffic light cameras, how many cameras are currently in operation and what is the total number of offences recorded to date.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, on 1st October 1992, three forces in England and Wales were equipped with seven speed cameras and 15 forces were equipped with 35 traffic light cameras. Cameras are operated at over 150 sites. Information on the number of offences which have been recorded is not yet available.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that most helpful reply. I have noticed that there are signs in connection with some of these cameras but I understand that there is a difficulty about authorising the signs for use by all the highway authorities. Can he confirm that such an authorisation has now been given, or are the notices associated with the cameras purely experimental? I am sure he will appreciate that it is the deterrent effect of these cameras that we wish to see rather than the catching of offenders.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the point of the cameras is of course to catch the offenders. If they deter some of your Lordships as well, then that is a double whammy. With regard to the question about notices, I cannot give my noble friend the answer but I shall find out and let her know.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, can the noble Earl indicate whether any cameras were situated outside No.10 today in order to measure the speed at which Mr. Heseltine made his escape? Can he indicate whether the total number of offences committed since April of this year has decreased since the cameras were introduced?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the noble Lord's first question was rather frivolous and I do not think requires an answer. With regard to his second question, the cameras were introduced on 1st July. As I explained in my original reply, we do not have the information about the number of offences which have occurred since they came into operation.

Lord Sefton of Garston

My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House whether any instructions or guidance are issued to the police in regard to the use of these meters? If so, will he publish them in the Library?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it is not usually customary to publish all police guidance. The basic point is that the camera is put up and then works automatically. The cameras can record about 360 offences in an hour whereas the normal policeman can deal with only about three or four.

Lord Sefton of Garston

My Lords, are instructions issued in regard to their use? I am informed by a fairly prominent chief constable that no instructions are issued as to their use.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there are certainly instructions with the cameras. Whether the police have been given particular instructions as to how to use the instructions on the cameras I cannot tell the noble Lord.

Lord Geddes

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the police have deployed any dummy cameras in connection with this matter?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, these cameras can be erected on poles. One can have more poles than cameras. A pole may have a camera on it or it may not. The camera may not be in the same place today as it was yesterday. If those are dummies, my noble friend can conclude that they are in operation. But the point is that several—say six—sites can be serviced by one camera.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, is it true that in the trials so far thousands—literally thousands—of motorists have been caught for various offences, including speeding and going through red traffic lights? Are all those thousands of people to be prosecuted; and, if so, will the police have time to do anything else?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the purpose of these cameras is to deal with speeding and traffic light offences. It may be that in the course of photographing a person turning right when he should not have turned right through a red light another fault such as careless driving or dangerous driving will show up. The point is to prosecute those who create the offence of jumping the red light or exceeding the speed limit. Anything else is incidental.

Lord Teviot

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this system has been operating in New South Wales for quite a long time and has been extremely successful in minimising accidents, including fatal accidents?

Earl Ferrers

Yes, my Lords, the principle has been used in a number of other countries and has been successful. If one is a motorist one may feel that it is uncomfortable, but if one is concerned with saving lives the cameras have a very good record.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, can the Minister confirm press reports that many of these poles have been equipped not with a camera, because the cameras are not available, but with a flashlight arrangement? This flashes now and again to give the impression that a camera is near. Can he confirm that that is true? How many of those are in use?

Earl Ferrers

No, my Lords, I cannot confirm that, but it sounds a very good idea.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, can the Minister say whether these cameras—dangerous instruments—work at night?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I think the noble Lord had better try to test it at night and see.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the idea of these cameras is to save police time? I make this point particularly in relation to a previous question. The photographs will speak for themselves and the police will not have to spend so much time giving evidence.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, my noble friend is perfectly right. The whole point is that these cameras can deal with a much larger number of offences than the police themselves can deal with. The majority will be dealt with by a fixed penalty notice of £40.