§ 3.3 p.m.
§ Lord Dean of Beswick asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they will reconsider their decision to compel certain local authorities to make financial payments into the local authority financial accounts from housing revenue account surpluses.
§ The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)My Lords, Schedule 4 to the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 requires a local housing authority to make a transfer from its housing revenue account to some other revenue account if its housing revenue account subsidy calculation results in a negative amount. The transfer must be equal to that amount. An authority not entitled to housing revenue account subsidy may also transfer any end-of-year surplus on its housing revenue account to some other revenue account. The Government have no plans to change these principles.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, is the Minister aware that I find that a very disgusting Answer, bearing in mind—
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, I withdraw the word "disgusting". Is the Minister aware that I find that a very disappointing Answer? Is she further aware that the Department of the Environment has issued a directive to 18 local authorities stating that the surplus on their housing revenue account must go into the general fund in order to keep the poll tax low? Does the Minister understand, therefore, that the people meeting their full commitment by paying their full rent and poll tax are being forced to subsidise others who are not paying their poll tax? How does that situation accord with the Prime Minister's persistent trumpeting about fairness for people under the Citizen's Charter?
§ Baroness BlatchMy Lords, the noble Lord used a great deal of energy in responding to my Answer. The same energy might be better deployed in persuading some of his colleagues in local authorities to pursue non-payment of both poll tax and rent. Of the 10 worst local authorities in terms of pursuing rent, Southwark, for example, has failed to collect 38.5 per cent., which is £35 million. In Brent the figure is £15 million; in Hammersmith, £11 million; and in Lambeth, £12 million. I could go on. That is what needs to be changed. The ring-fencing of housing revenue account encourages authorities to manage their housing in a more accountable and businesslike manner. We should be deploying our energies in encouraging that.
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, would the Minister care to reconsider that answer? Not content with insulting my noble friend—
§ Lord McIntosh of HaringeyMy Lords, after insulting my noble friend she went on to give an entirely irrelevant answer about uncollected rents. However, is it not the fact that the Question refers to the ring-fencing of housing revenue account? Is it not also a fact that this year, as regards 18 councils, the council tenants, who are on the whole the poorer in our society, will be forced to subsidise the rest? Can the Minister in social justice defend that situation?
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, I beg to move—
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, I beg to move in reliance on Standing Orders that the Clerk be instructed to read Order No. 30 relating to biting and insulting remarks.
§ The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern)My Lords, the Question is, That this Motion be agreed to?
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, we appear to be in a pre-election period. I hope that the noble and learned Lord will feel able to withdraw his Motion. I believe that no insult was intended either by my noble friend or by the noble Baroness. If things have gone wrong, I hope that the noble Lord the Leader of the House will encourage the House to persuade the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his Motion because I do not believe that it helps our procedures.
§ Lord Simon of GlaisdaleMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House whether it is the case that the Motion of the noble and learned Lord is not debatable?
§ Lord WaddingtonMy Lords, I am informed that the Motion is debatable. Perhaps my noble and learned friend will take the view that he has made his point. It is necessary for us to use moderation in all things in this Chamber; that is what we are famed for. Perhaps we can proceed after my noble and learned friend has made his point.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, if what I have done has reduced the temperature—
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneI shall be perfectly prepared to withdraw my Motion, but I shall not do so another time.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.