HL Deb 04 February 1992 vol 535 cc152-4

2.46 p.m.

The Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

How many civil servants in Grades 1–7 inclusive in the Home Civil Service and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office respectively are wholly or mainly engaged on matters concerning the European Community and which Minister and Cabinet committee is responsible for co-ordinating their activities.

The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)

My Lords, it is not possible to give a precise figure because of the difficulty of defining what are matters concerning the European Community and how many of the very large number of people who spend part of their time on European Community business are mainly so engaged. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Cabinet Office have the prime roles in co-ordinating the Government's policy towards the Community but other departments may take the lead on matters within their responsibilities.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply, but does he not think it remarkable that apparently, according to his reply, there is no thorough co-ordination of policy in the various departments of state towards the EC? Is the noble Lord aware that in 1992 the United Kingdom share of total EC expenditure after taking abatements into account amounts to £5.5 billion? Does the noble Lord agree that when the preliminary draft budget for 1993 is published some account should be given to the Westminster Parliament as to how that money is to be spent and the attitude which the Government will adopt towards the items of expenditure, covering all ministerial departments, incorporated in the budget? Surely he agrees that the British Parliament is entitled to be suitably informed through a co-ordinated effort by the Government.

Lord Waddington

My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, he is in error when he suggests that there is no thorough co-ordination of government policy towards the European Community. Every government department is affected to some degree by our membership of the European Community. It is right that individual departments should take the lead in matters affecting their own areas of responsibility.

That is where the expertise lies. However, interdepartmental discussion on policy takes place under the auspices of the Cabinet Office. As I said, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, in conjunction with the Cabinet Secretariat, co-ordinates Government policy towards the Community. The noble Lord is rightly concerned about resources. I suggest to the noble Lord that it would be a waste of resources to enlarge the bureaucracy in this country in order to have some new department ostensibly to deal with European matters when they can be dealt with perfectly effectively in the way that I have described.

Obviously the noble Lord is entirely right to talk about the need for us to watch very carefully our share of the European Community expenditure. However, he will be aware of, and will pay tribute to, the Herculean efforts made by the former Prime Minister to reduce the contribution that Britain has to make.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House the number of officials employed by the European Commission at the present time? How many of them are employed in the four centres in this country?

Lord Waddington

My Lords, the total staff in the European Parliament, Council, Commission, Court of Justice and Court of Auditors in 1991 was 24,629. That compares with 18,007 in 1981, but, of course, the Community was enlarged in the intervening years.

I am sorry, but I missed the second question put by the noble Lord.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I understand that officials of the European Commission are employed in four centres of this country, including London, Edinburgh and Cardiff—I am not sure of the other. Will the noble Lord indicate how many officials there are?

Lord Waddington

My Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord the number of British officials working in Brussels. There are 114 UK secondees to the European Community institutions of which 56 are civil servants at grade 7 or above. We are well aware that we could do with more British officials in the Community institutions. That is why we set up a European fast stream recruitment scheme to prepare people for the competitions for European Community posts.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I can supply the particulars for which the noble Lord searched. The total number of Commission employees in Brussels is approximately 14,000. Is the noble Lord aware that in the supplementary that I asked I was not implying that there should be further staff engaged in the United Kingdom? I was suggesting that in view of the co-ordination that the noble Lord said existed, the British Parliament should be provided with information prior to the decisions being made behind closed doors in Brussels on the size and content of the European budget.

Lord Waddington

My Lords, as noble Lords know, we have the most sophisticated system for scrutiny of European legislation and European proposals of any country in the Community. However, I do not doubt for one moment that we could improve matters further.

The figures that I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, were correct. I gave the total number for all the institutions. If one were to take the Commission alone, the figure is 16,426 permanent employees and 749 temporary employees.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, those figures seem remarkably small when we hear so much about the extravagant staffing of the Commission. For the record, will the noble Lord tell us how they compare with an average government department or an average local authority in this country?

Lord Waddington

My Lords, I need notice of that question. However, I do not believe that many of us consider staffing on the scale of 23,212 permanent officials and 1,417 temporary officials is a negligible matter. The cost is considerable. The total expenditure on staff in the European Community in 1991 was about £850 million.

Lord Bonham-Carter

My Lords, will the noble Lord be good enough to inform the House how many of those people are engaged in translation?

Lord Waddington

My Lords, I shall have to write to the noble Lord on that as I do not have the breakdown between the various functions carried out by the officials. However, I can give the noble Lord the number of people involved in the various parts of the European Community. Three thousand people are employed in the parliament, and another 503 who are temporary, 2,711 are employed in the Council; 16,426 are employed in the Commission and 749 who are temporary; 693 are employed in the Court of Justice and 101 who are temporary; and 320 are employed in the Court of Auditors with 64 who are temporary.