Charities Bill [H.L.] (Hansard, 28 November 1991)

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, I beg to move the fourth Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. It was agreed by your Lordships yesterday that this Bill should go to a Public Bill Committee. The names proposed for those to sit on the Committee, agreed by the Committee of Selection, are on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, as the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees and the noble Lord the Leader of the House know, we support the proposal that the Charities Bill should go to a Public Bill Committee because we wish to see the Bill on the statute book after due examination. However, I note from the wording of the Motion, That the Committee do meet on Tuesday next at a quarter past three o'clock in the Moses Room". The House will recall that the last time a Bill was referred to a Public Bill Committee was in 1985 when the Pilotage Bill was so committed. There was a good deal of argument and disagreement as to whether or not the reference to a Public Bill Committee had been a success. There was division among the Members of the Committee on the matter.
One problem was that the Committee met in the Moses Room, which is adjacent to this House, and that sittings were held in the afternoon when the House was also sitting. Many difficulties arose which I believe could have been avoided if the Committee had met upstairs. An even better solution would have been to meet upstairs in the morning. In order to ensure that the reference on this occasion is given an opportunity to be a success, perhaps I may ask whether it is possible to find room upstairs for the Committee to meet in the morning.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, with regard to holding the Committee in the Moses Room, I am afraid that the pressure on our committee rooms is now absolutely extreme. With private Bills, hybrid Bills and numerous other ordinary committee meetings, it is quite impossible to find a place for the Committee to meet other than in the Moses Room.
The Moses Room has certain advantages as well as disadvantages. It is somewhat like this House in the way that it is set out. It has a Bar of the House. I believe that it is not too bad. Since the Pilotage Bill we have tried to improve the facilities in respect of sound, and so on.
With regard to the times of sitting, the first meeting will be in the afternoon because it seemed to us that people would be present without having to alter their diaries. But it is entirely up to the Committee at its first meeting, to decide when it will meet in future. I think it quite likely that Members will decide to meet in the morning which I am sure will please the noble Lord the Leader of the House.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees for his reply. However, the fact remains that the location of the Committee in the Moses Room is thoroughly unsatisfactory. It is an important Bill and an important reference to a Public Bill Committee. I know that many noble Lords would like to see such references become a success. Therefore to say that there are other matters which must be discussed upstairs is not an adequate reply. After all, as the House well knows, the practice in the other place is to refer Committees upstairs. If they were adjacent: to the House of Commons there would be a riot there as well.

§ The Chairman of Committees
My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, I do not agree. There is only one really large room upstairs which is divisible into two. That is able therefore to accommodate two committees. We then use the Moses Room which I do not think is all that unfortunate a place in which to hold meetings. I have many meetings there.

§ Lord Simon of Glaisdale
My Lords, was not one of the Committee meetings on the Pilotage Bill taken upstairs? Were not both the upstairs room and the Moses Room found to be inconvenient?

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, having been involved as a Minister in putting through a Bill—admittedly, shorter than the Charities Bill—in the Moses Room, I am bound to say that on that occasion we found no difficulty about holding sittings there. share the view of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition that we wish to make this a success. Certainly, if there is a problem about location after Tuesday afternoon, no doubt that can he discussed through the usual channels.