Prisons: Industrial Disputes (Hansard, 20 May 1991)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, there were industrial disputes at 40 prisons in England and Wales as at 14th May 1991.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, does the noble Earl not find that a very disquieting figure? What are the Government intending to do about these never-ending disputes in our prisons? Last October the noble Earl told me in a Written Answer that there had been 70 such disputes in different prison department establishments. We are now told that 40 are still in existence. What do the Government propose to do to bring peace to our prisons?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, these are not matters of industrial action; they are disputes. There is a formal agreement for resolving differences of opinion. I cannot tell the noble Lord when the Prison Officers' Association or others will stop bringing about disputes. The prison service has been going through a great change since 1987 and the introduction of Fresh Start. Obviously that produces problems periodically which are there to be resolved. Industrial disputes are different from industrial action.

§ / Lard Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, what percentage of the total number of prisons is represented by the 40 prisons in which my noble friend tells us there are disputes?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there are 125 prisons in all and that represents a proportion of them.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his mathematics. They are obviously as good as mine. Does he agree that one problem is the recent directive issued by the Home Office stating that 6 there will be no increase in manning levels this year to compensate for a further reduction in working hours? If there are 40 disputes now, does the Minister agree that after the directive and the response which it has provoked he can expect a few more in the not too distant future?
Has the Minister seen the blistering letter written by the Prison Governors Association to the Home Secretary? If so, will he answer the question it poses. It asks whether the Home Secretary will give: a clear undertaking that if additional staffing requirements are identified by a staffing assessment, you will take the necessary steps to obtain that additional staff". Does he agree that if that assurance were given, it may go a considerable way towards bringing peace to our prisons?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, this is a complicated issue and I do not wish to go into too much detail. However, the total number of Prison Officers' Association staff is 24,000. It has increased by 4,000 over the three years since 1987; it is increasing by another 2,500 this financial year. At the same time the prison population has gone down from 51,000 in 1987 to 45,000 now. That is a substantial increase in the ratio of prison officers to the prison population.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, the Minister is right. If the letter had come from the Prison Officers' Association that might be an answer; but it is the governors who are writing in these terms to the Home Secretary.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that does not alter the facts or the figures.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is resort had to ACAS or any other independent organisation to resolve these long-standing disputes?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the principle is that if the local Prison Officers' Association has a dispute it makes representations to the governor and he tries to resolve the problem. If there is no agreement, it is registered as a dispute and the governor informs the head of the industrial relations branch of the Home Office and the area manager. There is then an area dispute meeting with the governor, the area manager, the Prison Officers' Association local committee and the national executive member. If there is no agreement the matter goes to national level, where the same people, including the head of the industrial relations branch of the Home Office, take part, and they decide what to do. Either the employers impose their view or the Prison Officers' Association takes industrial action. A great deal of effort is made to resolve disputes before they reach that level.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, these disputes have gone on for years. The situation that the noble Earl reported to the House today is still profoundly unsatisfactory. Can he indicate whether, given that most of the disputes concern manning levels, thought is being given by the Home Office to obtain some form of independent analysis of staffing levels in individual prisons with the object of bringing these disputes to an end?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the introduction of Fresh Start produced a lot of problems. The Government agreed to increase staffing levels nationally. However, only 25 disputes over staffing levels occurred— though of course that is 25 too many. It is our intention and desire that there should be fewer disputes in the prison service. I agree that the position is unsatisfactory.