East Timor (Hansard, 13 May 1991)

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, we support the efforts of the UN Secretary General to promote a dialogue between Portugal and Indonesia leading to a settlement which takes into account the interests of the East Timorese people.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer, but perhaps he will answer two further questions. First, given the fact that 100,000 people—a sixth of the population—have lost their lives since the illegal occupation of East Timor by the Indonesians in 1975 and given that British arms sales have contributed to sustaining the presence of Indonesia in East Timor, does not the Minister think that it is about time that we reviewed our arms sales policy towards the Indonesian armed services? Secondly, will the Minister say whether, in view of the Amnesty reports on human rights violations, he took up that matter on his recent visit to Djakarta?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the answer to the second question is yes. On the first question, the number of deaths is not known. The noble Baroness quoted a figure which has been mentioned before, but many of those deaths were in the earlier stages of the Indonesian enforcement of its rule in East Timor. More recently, there has been a great improvement. Even more recently, the ICRC has been allowed in and certain excesses by the army have been dealt with.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, on the question of arms sales to Indonesia, is it not a fact that, if she did not buy from this country, she would buy from someone else?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, all countries have a sovereign right under the United Nations Charter to secure the means of their own self-defence. Therefore, my noble friend is probably right.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I hope that the noble Earl will disregard the supplementary question asked by his noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter and with which the House must disagree. However, does he agree that the Indonesian Government have waged a cruel war against the East Timorese against the resolutions of the United Nations? Does he agree that Her Majesty's Government have indicated on several occasions that they are in favour of self-determination for the East Timorese? In those circumstances, how can he 1356 possibly justify the sale of arms to Indonesia? Can he say whether, he raised that matter with the Indonesian Government when he was in Djakarta recently and can he say what their reaction was?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we ought to put the sales of arms in perspective. There has not been a great volume of sales of arms, but I reiterate that all countries have a sovereign right under the United Nations Charter to secure the means of their own self-defence. I therefore think that my noble friend is probably right: if a country wishes to buy equipment of one kind or another, it will shop around the world markets and so acquire it. I reiterate that I raised the matter in Djakarta. I spoke about it to the Foreign Minister, Mr. Alatas, and the other Ministers that I met. I also saw members of the ICRC with whom I discussed the situation.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, but what was their reaction to the noble Earl's representations to them? Is the noble Earl saying that Her Majesty's Government are in favour of the sale of arms to a country which is waging an unjust war against a small country of 600,000 people, against all the principles and decisions of the United Nations?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my concern was very much with the human rights side of the matter. We hope that the UN Secretary General will be able to solve the matter bilaterally with Indonesia and Portugal. It was the disintegration of the Portuguese colonial empire that led to the present unhappy situation and the move by Indonesia. I must tell the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition that we take great care in any arms sales not to sell arms that might be used against civilian populations.

Lord Morris
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the Question illustrates, not for the first time, the danger of passing resolutions that cannot be implemented? Is it not for the United Nations to take the initiative regarding the implementation of its resolutions rather than for the United Kingdom on its own?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I agree. This is very much a situation in which the United Kingdom is concerned about human rights, as it is worldwide. However, the actual details must be resolved with the UN Secretary General and bilaterally between Indonesia and Portugal.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, in the light of what the Minister said, does he agree that he is justifying the sale of arms by other countries to the IRA?

The Earl of Caithness
No, certainly not, my Lords.