§ 3.31 p.m.
§ Lord Orr-Ewing asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ How many ships were chartered to carry men and equipment for the Gulf war and how many of them were registered in the United Kingdom.
859§ Lord ReayMy Lords, 114 vessels were chartered in support of the move of men and equipment to the Gulf, of which five were British flagged. A number of those vessels undertook more than one voyage.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. I am aware that the special circumstances of the Gulf somewhat distort those figures Is he aware that, as a result of the recent report on our merchant fleet and its rundown, Early Day Motion No. 500, signed by 355 Members of Parliament in another place, drew attention to the need for action to reverse that position? It seems that if nothing is done we shall lose the fourth arm of our defence services and will no longer be able to deploy our forces as we did so well in the Gulf. The interests of Britain and its allies may be threatened in many parts or the world and we shall be unable to move our forces there. Can something be set in action to try to correct the position so that we have the flexibility to deploy our forces speedily where they are needed?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that action is needed. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer acknowledged the interests of Members of another place in this matter when he singled out the Merchant Navy for assistance in the Budget. He proposed a further relaxation of the rules giving tax relief to British seafarers working mainly overseas. That will mean that more seamen will be exempt from United Kingdom tax on their overseas earnings. As my right honourable friend explained, his intention was to encourage shipping companies to draw their crews from United Kingdom seamen.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, while it is regrettable that the merchant fleet flying the United Kingdom flag is now as small as it is, were not the circumstances last August that most of the suitable vessels were unavailable because they were already engaged —a felicitous reason for not being available at that time?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, the advantage of chartering is that one can do so quickly. In the case of the Gulf conflict, we were able to operate entirely by charter on commercial terms and to obtain all the ships we needed in that way. The disadvantage is that chartered ships can refuse to sail into danger zones. That did not happen in that case. If it had, no doubt the Government and Parliament would have had to consider the possibility of emergency legislation which would have enabled requisitioning to take place.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that when I asked —I believe that it was last week —a supplementary question as to whether we had sufficient merchant ships to mount an operation similar to that which was mounted in the Falklands to deal with a nasty little dictator, I was assured that the British merchant fleet was up to the job? Is e aware that the Answer he has given today seems to contradict his noble friend? Will he say which Answer is correct?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I do not think so. We should just about be able to mount an operation today similar to the one we mounted in the case of the Falklands, although it would be tight for some classes of ships.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, will my noble friend clarify the position as to the requisitioning of a vessel owned by a United Kingdom registered company sailing under a flag of convenience?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, a ship has to be a British-flagged ship, flying the Red Ensign, before Her Majesty's Government can requisition it. Ownership is not the determining consideration.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, if that is the case, will Her Majesty's Government reconsider their attitude to flags of convenience?
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, will the Minister confirm that if it comes to requisitioning in a state similar to that which existed at the time of the Gulf crisis, there is sufficient tonnage under the British flag to meet our defence needs?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, as I said, in that case we were able to obtain the ships that we wanted, but it is possible to imagine a situation in which it might not be so easy.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, is the Minister satisfied that the defence of this country and of our national interests should depend upon the willingness of charterers to go into danger zones?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, as I explained, if those circumstances had arisen, we should have had to consider the possibility of initiating emergency legislation.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, does my noble friend believe that one of the lessons learnt from the Gulf war was the effectiveness of helicopter gunships? Do some of the merchant ships have strengthened decks to carry those effective weapons?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, there are a certain number of modern tankers and ships designed to take civil helicopters, which in some cases can be as heavy as military helicopters, and they should be available.