COMMONS AMENDMENTS (Hansard, 22 July 1991)

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 30 to 39. Amendment No. 32 follows on from an amendment at Third Reading prompted by my noble friend Lady Elles, who asked whether the term "person" meant any child under 18. This amendment seeks to clarify the wording in the subsection. While still ruling out the possibility of anyone under 18 actually being interviewed, we have deleted the absolute prohibition on interviews taking place in the presence of those under 18. This enables, for example, a 17 year-old interpreter or a small child needing supervision to be present.
525 We are aware of course that we shall need to ensure that what takes place at the interview is in no way detrimental to the child. We shall therefore be issuing guidance to inspectors to safeguard against this happening.
Amendments Nos. 30, 31, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 are in response to the representations made by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, and other noble Lords during the Bill's passage through this House. They are the result of undertakings that I gave to the noble Lord.
In the majority of visits to employers' premises by officers of the child support agency it will not be necessary for the official to have inspectorate powers but just to have an official identity card. It will be necessary to use these powers only if the employer or employee proves to be unco-operative. We propose to restrict the authorisations to act under Clause 14 to cases where other means of obtaining the necessary information have failed.
Amendments Nos. 30, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 enable inspectorate powers to be used only where there is separate authorisation on behalf of the Secretary of State to be given to a specific officer for a specific employer or self-employed person or premises. This authority will last only for a specified time limit.
Amendments Nos. 31 and 33 delete words which are unnecessary because of a definition of powers inserted by Amendment No. 39.
As always, your Lordships took a particular interest in this clause. I am grateful for your contributions in improving the clause so that the legislation is now in line with the reality of what is required practice. I commend these amendments to the House.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord was most gracious in the way in which he introduced the amendments. All noble Lords on all sides of the House were most anxious about the intrusion permitted under the Bill as it stood. Now the situation must be dealt with case by case. There must be an ad hoc authorisation and the inspector so authorised by the Secretary of State in any particular case will be furnished with a certificate of his appointment.
I do not say that this power, even so limited, is not an invasion of personal rights. However, having argued the case during earlier stages of the Bill as effectively as I could, supported as I was by many noble Lords from all parts of the House, I can only accept with gratitude the improved situation that now exists.

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, I too thank my noble and learned friend for the considerable improvement in the drafting of this clause. However, I express anxiety because new Clause 14(4) will allow questioning of a person over the age of 18 even in the 526 presence of a child under that age. I know that that can cause considerable pain and suffering to children. I hope that in the light of the amendment that has now been made, strict guidelines will be given to inspectors about how they should proceed in such a situation.

§ Lord Simon of Glaisdale
My Lords, I entirely agree that the provision is a considerable improvement on what went before. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, that we should not let it appear as though all is now sweetness and light. Extraordinary powers of intrusion are involved in this provision. The test is whether any ordinary creditor has the right—even the restricted right; the final last resort right under this clause—to enter a place of employment to interrogate the employer and fellow workers and to threaten them with prosecution unless they answer the question he asks? The answer is that no private person has any such right. Therefore we are condoning the granting of an exceptional power to a public servant.
On Report and at Third Reading your Lordships considered what Dicey said about the rule of law: it is the equal subjection of all citizens, whether official or not, to one law exercised in the civil courts. The provision is a grave derogation from that. Although it is only right to pay tribute to the care that has been taken to restrict the intrusion the provision is inconsistent with the traditional view of the rule of law in this country.

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I have to disagree with my noble and learned friend on the point. Perhaps we should leave it at that for the present. I am grateful for the remarks of my noble friend Lady Elles and the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. I sought to explain why an absolute exclusion is not appropriate, but I agree with my noble friend that this power has to be exercised very sensitively. We shall ensure that that happens. The Secretary of State will be directly responsible to Parliament for any authorisations given under the clause.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, bearing in mind what we have heard about the citizen's charter, presumably the authorisation will, first, name the officer, who will be obliged to give his name to the factory owner or anyone else. Will the authorisation contain a photograph so that there can be no doubt that the man has authorisation to enter and interview?

§ The Lord Chancellor
My Lords, I see no reason to quarrel with the requirements. I do not believe that the clause specifies anything other than what subsection (10) states: Every inspector…shall be furnished with a certificate of his appointment". If one is dealing with someone who is unco-operative it will be necessary for the inspector to establish to that person that he is the person appointed. The method that the noble Lord has in mind seems to me the most likely, although recent photographs that I have seen vary somewhat in how closely they depict the person. However, that is probably the best method available and on that basis the noble Lord can feel reassured.