Crime Prevention (Hansard, 15 October 1990)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, the Government will continue to pursue vigorously their policies to combat crime and to protect the public. The proposals in the White Paper, Crime, Justice and Protecting the Public will increase and enhance the courts' powers to deal effectively with offenders. The programme of crime prevention measures is continuing to expand, but effective action against crime will require a wholehearted commitment from the entire community; for example, in reducing the opportunities for crime.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, will the noble Earl accept that his reply will be disappointing to many people who are very worried about the record crime rate figures? Perhaps I may remind the House of the 17 per cent. increase in the second quarter of this year compared with the same period last year. Were the Government not able to talk about greater police patrolling or about rehabilitation in the Answer to the Question? Is the noble Earl content with the Home Secretary's speech at the Tory Party conference—this side of the House would not have joined in the ovation—when issues of capital punishment, more severe sentences and cessation of parole in certain cases seemed to be the key-note of a very disappointing speech?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, would not expect me to agree with his analysis of my right honourable friend's speech, which I thought was a masterly speech. The noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, took up one specific set of figures relating to the last quarter. One must be careful about taking one set of figures: one should take the annual figures from 12 months ago. The percentage increase of violent crime is, in fact, lower than the percentage increase of all crimes, which went up by 13 per cent. It is important to remember that much crime can be prevented. Nine out of 10 crimes are against property. Car crimes amount to one-quarter of all recorded crime, and 20 per cent. of all burglaries and all vehicle thefts are through unlocked and insecure doors and windows. While I regret greatly the increase in the number of recorded crimes, many of them are preventable by the public themselves.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, the noble Earl's analysis is interesting. Does he not agree —I am sure he does—that the crime figures fall into two categories? One encompasses serious crimes, including violence, and the other covers petty crime. As the noble Earl said, serious crimes have not increased as much as petty crimes, and we can be pleased about that. Nobody in the penal reform world wants mercy for crimes of violence, but we can no longer afford the luxury of sending petty criminals to prison, particularly when the prisons to which they are 581 sent are so utterly beneath decency. Therefore, I hope the noble Earl, in dealing with crime generally, will realise that there are matters, apart from the criminal aspect, which are hopelessly wrong and which must be put right.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, puts his finger on a point on which the Government at least go some way in agreement. The courts will be encouraged to make a sharper distinction between serious and less serious crimes. The serious crimes will attract long prison sentences —which I believe even the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, will approve of —with at least half the sentence being spent in custody. We believe that punishment in the community is far more suitable for property offenders.
The noble Lord referred to the two categories of serious and petty crime. I re-emphasise the point which he touched upon; that is, that serious crimes remain a constant percentage of all crime. Violent crimes against the person increased this year by 7 per cent. at 180,000; sexual offences increased by 4 per cent. to 29,000, and robbery increased by 5 per cent. to 33,000. Therefore, of the total of 4.2 million for all crimes, 242,000 were crimes of violence. I should like to add that the majority of those bad crimes are cleared up, three out of four sexual offences are cleared up, nine out of 10 homicides are cleared up and more than three out of four offences of violence against the person are cleared up.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House a little more about these figures and how they relate to the rural areas of Britain? Does he accept from me that these days the newspapers are heavy with reported crime in the rural areas of Wales? Is there any relation between that phenomenon and the fact that the chief constables of Wales complain that they are understaffed and unable to cope with their duties at present?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I cannot comment on specific parts of the country, other than to say that, while these matters have to be reported, sometimes people wonder whether the mere reporting of them stimulates action in others.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, the figures for reported crime are notoriously unreliable for a variety of reasons. Would it not be possible to arrange for the Home Office figures and the various police figures to be issued at the same time instead of allowing them to dribble out in a sort of alarmist crescendo over a period of time?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I will certainly look into that point, but getting statistics to appear when convenient and moving the dates when statistics appear is perhaps like moving Mount Sinai.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords—

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, we have now exceeded the time that the Procedure Committee recommended should be allowed for Questions. Perhaps I may therefore suggest that we 582 take two more questions from noble Lords opposite. The noble Lord, Lord Parry, had risen to his feet and the noble Lord, Lord Donoughue, has been seeking to put a question for some minutes. We should then move on to the next Question.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that Government answers have taken twice as long as questions from this side of the House?

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, I am grateful to the Leader of the House. I ask the noble Earl to accept from me that I was not quoting alarmist figures. I am, in fact, reflecting what I believe is the alarm and concern generally felt. Can the noble Earl, either now or in a letter to me, reply to my question about the complaints from chief constables that they are understaffed?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, in deference to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Blackburn, the answer is "yes" to both noble Lords' questions.

§ Lord Donoughue
My Lords, bearing in mind that one area of expanding crime is the white collar crime of fraud in the financial sector, does not the noble Earl agree that the decision that has emerged this week to reduce the resources of the Serious Fraud Office by removing the position of one of the top three men —the deputy director—is inexplicable?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I think that that is an administrative point, but I shall certainly look into it.