Chlorofluorocarbons (Hansard, 3 May 1990)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)
My Lords, United Kingdom consumption of chlorofluorocarbons was half the 1986 level in 1989–10 years ahead of the requirements of the Montreal Protocol. Production has also fallen significantly.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord two questions. First, is it not the case that the fall in consumption is largely due to consumer resistance as a result of publicity about the danger of using CFCs? Can the noble Lord tell the House what is the fall in production of CFCs? As I understand the position, while consumption is falling production has not fallen by anything like the same extent because of our exports of CFCs. In other words, we are reducing sales in this country and compensating by exporting to other countries. Secondly, is the noble Lord aware of the Royal Society of Chemistry conference being held today? It is an international conference on CFCs and the ozone layer. Have the Government any knowledge of that conference; are they represented at it; and are they supporting it?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in response to the noble Lord's four questions, first, I am well aware of the conference that is taking place today. The fact is that the populations not only of this country but of many others have responded to the liability—if I may use that word—of CFCs to the atmosphere. And that, for all Members of your Lordships' House, I should have thought, is an extremely encouraging event. With regard to the production of CFCs, as opposed to consumption, the figures are falling below those required by the Montreal Protocol.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, will the noble Lord tell the House what progress is being made under two heads? First, are the Government insisting that the design of household refrigerators should permit easy decommissioning? Secondly, what progress is being made in setting up decommissioning centres so that CFCs can be recycled instead of liberated?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Earl's question, a number of local authorities have already taken the initiative. In answer to the second part, I can tell him that in the United Kingdom there are only two manufacturers of CFCs which are willing to recycle all the CFCs that are returned.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, does my noble friend consider that as well as reducing our output of CFCs, it is very important to secure international agreement for their reduction worldwide? It is a worldwide matter. Does my noble friend further agree that it is also important to contribute our technical expertise in helping less well-developed countries to reduce their dependence on CFCs?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, my noble friend is correct. One of the reasons why the production of CFCs in this country has not fallen as fast as consumption is because we still export CFCs. That is because we do not consider it is a good idea to encourage their production in other countries. My noble friend is perfectly right to point out the second issue. We shall only succeed in the removal and overal reduction of CFCs if it is done on a universal rather than an individual basis.

§ Viscount Hanworth
My Lords, can the noble Lord say to what extent government establishments are returning surplus CFCs from their large refrigeration plants for recycling or dispoal?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I do not have the individual figures for government plants and the return of CFCs.

§ Lord Mcintosh of Haringey
My Lords, I shall not insult the Minister by asking whether he is aware of the alternative fluorocarbons environmental acceptability study which was published earlier this year in connection with the United Nations environmental programme. In the light of the conclusion of that study, which was that there are alternative compounds which are better than CFCs and which do not have damaging side effects, can the Minister say what positive action the Government are taking to fulfil the recommendation made in that study that industry should proceed with research to commercialise the compound?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the Government have always taken the view that we have to proceed on a step-by-step basis. The third meeting of the Montreal Protocol is to be held in London this summer. If there is anything that can be usefully put into that meeting in terms of achieving a result and as long as that can be done on a universal basis, the Government will go ahead with it.

§ Lord Mcintosh of Haringey
My Lords, when the Minister speaks of proceeding step by step, I hope that he is not speaking about the kind of steps to which the Secretary of State for Transport referred. He seems to think that the level of C02 will get worse over the next 20 years, and that that is perfectly acceptable.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I shall not answer the question in the way that the noble Lord requires. As the Government, we have to deal with reality rather than with hope.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord has not answered my first question. Can he say whether the Government are participating in today's conference of the Royal Society of Chemistry? Are they giving any support to the effort to find substitutes for CFCs? In addition, can the Minister also say whether the Government are giving any finance towards finding substitutes? Following the noble Earl's question regarding substitutes for CFCs, is the Minister aware that the Bird group is the main group of companies working on this matter, and that they have stated categorically (and they have written to me) that appropriate legislation is required if the decommissioning of refrigerators is to be carried out in the safe way which they have invented?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am sure that Members of this House remember very well that last year a hugely successful international conference took place in London concerning CFCs and the ozone layer. The reason for that successful conference was very straightforward; namely, that the Government of this country recognise that it is only by universal action that the problem can be dealt with. To survive, the problem cannot be dealt with by taking simple action on a smaller basis when the difficulties face us on a universal basis.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, can the Minister say what the British Government are doing, following that conference, in the form of legislation and in supporting moves by industry to find substitu:es for CFCs?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the companies involved in the manufacture of CFCs are spending a considerable sum of money on developing commercial alternatives. It is all very well for the noble Lord to ask what the Government are doing; but they are not manufacturers of CFCs. It is rather difficult for the Government to finance an alternative.