§ 11.7 a.m.
§ Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they propose to assist local authorities who need additional staff to combat child abuse.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Hooper)My Lords, the Department of Health through the social services inspectorate monitors the services provided by local authorities and gives advice and assistance as appropriate. It is for local authorities to consider how to use the funds available to them in the light of local circumstances and overall legislative requirements.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that Answer. Is she aware that the abuse of children is an appalling disfigurement of our present society? Is she further aware that the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and many local authorities which monitor children at risk have found a 35 per cent. increase in child abuse? Does she recognise that they are finding difficulty in obtaining staff to look after the increased number of children at risk? Can the Government do anything to help?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I fully agree with the noble Lord that all cases in this category are appalling and tragic. In the department we have read the NSPCC's figures with interest. We note that they are based on12 out of 109 authorities and are collected at a different time of the year from the department's figures. The early returns to the department from about 45 authorities (for the year ending 31st March 1990) do not support the increase of the order suggested by the NSPCC figures. Any increase or indication of increase must, however, be a matter of concern. We continue with our commitment to provide a proper framework to ensure the protection of children from abuse. We shall continue to work closely with the NSPCC in the valuable work it is doing on this and many other matters.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the vast majority of social welfare workers do a first class job? They really do. They have had so much criticism lately. It has been shown in recent cases that, short of actually living in the house and stopping the man coming home drunk and beating a child almost to death, there is nothing a social welfare worker can do. Is it not about time that we put that on the record?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, the noble Lord has put it on the record very well on behalf of us all.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, the noble Baroness surely agrees that there are great difficulties with the reported figures. They could be the tip of an iceberg, although our hope is that that is not the case. The problem is that we do not know very much about the scale of this appalling form of behaviour. Is the department financing research, first, into trying to get a clear picture of the extent of child abuse; and, secondly, into factors which might eventually throw more light on the causes of this appalling aberrant behaviour?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, we are looking closely at the situation and monitoring it in the normal way. As I have explained, we have an annual system of returns. The returns are coming to the department in the usual way. However, I point out to the noble Lord that in response to what appears to be an increasing problem the number of field social workers has increased. My figures indicate that it has increased from 24,300 in 1984 to 27,870 in 1988. The Government are making available additional training grants —£19.4 million in grants to support a £27.7 million programme in 1990–91. Since 1979–80 local authority spending on personal social services has increased by 38 per cent. in real terms. If training is the area requiring attention, it seems that we are moving forward.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, can the noble Baroness follow up the point made by her noble friend Lady Faithfull about the training together of people —the police, lawyers and social workers —who need to handle together these issues? I understand that the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, said the other day that social workers are not taking part in these 1813 training programmes. If that is so, is it not deplorable? Will the noble Baroness see to it that it does take place?
§ Baroness HooperYes, indeed, my Lords, that is an important point. I shall draw it to the attention of my honourable friend who is responsible in the department for that area.
§ Lord Harris of GreenwichMy Lords, the noble Baroness indicated that she did not accept the NSPCC figures and preferred those of her own department. Can she give the figures obtained by her department? She did not tell the House what they are.
§ Baroness HooperNo, my Lords, I cannot help the noble Lord. All the returns have not yet come in and therefore we do not have the final figures. I indicated that the NSPCC figures were based on 12 out of 109 authorities. Our returns are based on 45 out of 109 authorities. I am advised that there can be a great deal of variety in the returns depending on the geographical location from which they come. It is therefore rather difficult to take a meaningful average if the figures are to be averaged out.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the apparent growth of what my noble friend referred to as aberrant behaviour and the publicity given to it has become a matter of acute concern to noble Lords throughout the House and, I believe, to the general public outside. I appreciate the personal concern of the noble Baroness and her right honourable friends. But in view of the continuance of this behaviour and the need to bring in not only the NSPCC but the police, schoolteachers and other groups, including local authorities, is there not a case now for a major inquiry into the causes and the general implications of what has become a matter of national concern?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I agree that this is a very difficult situation. I think that everyone concerned, whether working in the department, the voluntary sector or in local authorities, takes the matter very seriously. I gather that it is largely a question of the management of the investment of funds rather than their adequacy which is at issue. Nevertheless, as I said in a previous response, in terms of the kind of integrated approach that has been suggested, I shall draw the noble Lord's remarks to the attention of my honourable friend.
§ The Earl of LauderdaleMy Lords, can my noble friend say first whether the figures to which she referred apply only to England and Wales or whether they cover the whole of the United Kingdom? In the event that they do not cover Scotland, perhaps someone could write to me on the matter. Secondly, as she indicated that there are geographical variations, can she at this stage give a hint as to the areas which are, shall we say, less well-behaved in this respect?
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I shall deal first with my noble friend's last point. My understanding is that the problem appears to be greater in inner-city 1814 areas. So far as concerns the overall NSPCC figures, I believe that they relate to the 109 authorities in England.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, although I go almost all of the way with the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Mellish about the dedication of social workers, is the Minister aware that there have been a number of cases where children have met their deaths in the most horrendous way and where inquiries in various forms have been set up which have reached the conclusion that the performance of some senior social workers involved in those cases left much to be desired? No action is ever really taken to redress what has taken place, and we cannot bring these children back. Although some people are found wanting in this respect, nothing happens to their careers thereafter.
Having said that, is the Minister also aware that an increasing number of people are of the opinion that the absorption of children's departments in the old local authorities into enormous social services departments has led to a deterioration in the watch which is being kept on children? Will she, therefore, look into the matter? I am convinced that some of these incidents would have been avoided if the children's departments which specialise in the care of children had been left alone to get on with the job.
§ Baroness HooperMy Lords, I understand that social service is an integrated activity, even if it is not integrated with other services to the extent which has been suggested today. We follow the generic social work approach in this matter advocated by the Seebohm Report. I am inclined to agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, that it is virtually impossible to have total surveillance in these cases.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)My Lords, I wonder whether I may interrupt the proceedings for a moment. I hesitate to do so, but we have spent 10 minutes on one Question. The general idea is that we spend 20 minutes on four Questions. Therefore, your Lordships may think it appropriate to move on to the next Question.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her encouraging words which will be well received by local authorities and the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, especially as it is said that children could now suffer from physical sexual abuse —
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, the situation could be worse. It seems that the noble Baroness will take—
Earl FerrersMy Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord has concluded his Question. If he has not done so, I think that it would be best if he did.