HL Deb 22 January 1990 vol 514 cc870-2

2.48 p.m.

Lord Nugent of Guildford asked Her Majesty's Government:

What has been the result of installing automatic barriers at Underground stations in terms of reducing fare evasion and economising on staff, and whether serious delays have occurred.

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I understand from London Underground that the installation of gates was largely completed to plan and that, since the gates have come into operation, revenue from ticket sales at stations with gates has increased by £3 million. The gates have enabled London Underground to redeploy staff away from ticket collecting to tasks which help passengers and ensure their safety. London Underground has not reduced the overall number of staff.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. Is he aware that, as a regular user of the Underground during peak times, I have observed the new barriers working satisfactorily? Is he further aware that the London Underground authority should take credit for installing the automatic barriers, which have led to an obvious advantage? Does he agree that the saving of £2 million is less than I expected, because fare evasion was known to be occurring on a very large scale? Does he anticipate that the figure will be improved upon? Will my noble friend answer my last Question about problems of congestion?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I too have found a considerable improvement since the barriers were introduced during the past year. They have had a considerable effect in reducing the level of fraud —the figure I gave was £3 million. However, London Underground estimates that fraud costs it and honest passengers over £20 million per year and, therefore, there is still scope for further reductions. London Underground is working on that issue.

As regards congestion, it is true that the gates are helping. When two trains arrive at the same time at the same station and all the passengers disembark, the gates can be opened automatically and thus congestion is relieved.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, in terms of inflation is my noble friend aware that the £3 million saved by London Underground is rather less than would be expected? Is he also aware that many regular users of the Underground would have preferred London Underground to have concentrated its energies on securing the mechanical efficiency of the trains and proper working of the escalators instead of installing that expensive machinery which it is perfectly possible to avoid?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I shall certainly pass on to the chairman of LRT the comments of my noble friend. All estimates of fraud should be treated with a certain degree of scepticism. It should be emphasised that they are estimates by London Underground and not by the department.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, have the Government any information about the safety record of these automatic barriers? There are stories of accidents occurring and people being squashed. Do the Government have any figures on that and, if so, what are they?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, the Government may have figures but I do not have them today. If there are such figures I shall make sure that the noble Lord is advised of them. However, independent consulting engineers have declared that the gate system is safer than previous ticket barriers and safer even than open stations because, as I have said, gates can be used to control overcrowding. The Railway Inspectorate and the London Fire Brigade accept that view.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, I am sorry to press the noble Viscount but I do not understand how the gates can be safer than open stations.

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, because they can be used to control overcrowding.

Lord Beloff

My Lords, has the Minister seen a report in a Sunday newspaper that the Secretary of State for Transport has made a journey on the London Underground in order to familiarise himself with the problems which many of us face more frequently? Will other members of Her Majesty's Government follow that admirable example?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I read that in the newspaper yesterday. I understood that he was going to travel on the Underground every day and not merely make one journey. I assure my noble friend that as spokesman for transport, I travel regularly on the Underground and I have seen a great improvement over the past year.

Lord Ezra

My Lords, can the noble Viscount indicate whether it is a rule that a member of the staff of London Transport should be present wherever those barriers are installed in case anything goes wrong?

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, yes. Regulations specifying fire prevention measures at sub-surface Underground stations were introduced last September. Regulation 10.4 requires that stations must have at least two staff on duty at any time otherwise that station is closed.

Baroness Carnegy of Lour

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that frequently that does not happen? As somebody who travels a great deal on the Underground, very often with a large suitcase, can he tell me what one is supposed to do if one has a large suitcase, there is no member of staff present and one cannot get through the gate? When my noble friend travelled on the Underground, perhaps he had his Red Box with him and suffered with that.

Viscount Davidson

My Lords, I do not have a Red Box. However, I can tell my noble friend that each station has next to the other gates, special manual gate facilities for passengers who are disabled, who have heavy luggage or who are accompanied by small children. If any of your Lordships find difficulty, I suggest that you should write to the chairman of LRT.