Education Resources (Hansard, 22 January 1990)

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the Government believe that, given effective management of resources, including staff, the resources made available should be sufficient to allow proper provision to be made in every local education authority.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Perhaps I may also congratulate her on her appointment and commiserate with her on the extremely difficult task that she has been given. Is she aware that the current teacher loss is damaging the fabric of education? Those who leave create extra burdens for those who stay; those who stay then become fed up and they in turn obtain alternative employment and there are therefore fewer teachers. It is a vicious circle, with extremely dangerous elements, which might have a very serious effect on education.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his congratulations and commiserations. I think that I shall need them in good measure in the current weeks. It is important to put the matter into perspective. There is no teacher shortage which would cause a crisis. Vacancies have stayed within a narrow range for many years. Secondary vacancies in January 1989 were 1.2 per cent., the same as in January 1979. Resignations, which are running at about 10 per cent., are not out of line with previous years. About half of those resigning move on to other teaching posts. The proportion of teachers leaving full-time service in maintained schools has remained constant in recent years. Many initiatives are being introduced to address the issue of teacher supply.

§ Lord Addington
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her first appearance at the Dispatch Box. Although the market place is a very important factor in deciding who goes into employment, does she agree that the Government should make more resources available in terms of pay to encourage more teachers into the profession?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, no. I do not agree. The Government's record on teachers' pay is considerable. Teachers' pay has risen by 30 per cent. in real terms since 1979. In cash terms, since 1986 868 it has risen by 40 per cent. The number of incentive allowances available has increased rapidly since they were introduced in 1987 to a total of nearly 175,000.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, I offer my congratulations and all that. How does what the noble Baroness states apply to Tower Hamlets?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his congratulations and all that. Indeed I thank the previous noble Lord for his congratulations. There are two particular problems with Tower Hamlets. One is housing, and I know that the Government are trying to address that problem in consultation with the education authorities. Another is that Tower Hamlets has not made the proposition a very attractive one for teachers.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, perhaps I may add my congratulations to the noble Baroness from these Benches. Is the situation not patchy, with great shortages in the South-East, while in Scotland and parts of the North-East schools are being closed? Is that not a reflection of the inadequacy of a regional policy?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the problems for schools will be different in different places. It would be wrong to have one policy to cover the United Kingdom. The problems in Scotland would be very different from those in England. The range of the policies provided by the Government reflects the differences between regions. It would be for local education authorities to reflect the nature of the problems in their areas.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, it is about time that my noble friend received some congratulations from these Benches. What are the Government doing about good propaganda for teaching services? Teaching is not just a matter of pay but of vocation. The desire is to encourage men and women to go into this noble service. I ask the question because I am a school governor.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his congratulations. I hope that they will continue to come from my side of the House. He raises an interesting point. The Government are involved in a great deal of promotion to encourage teachers back into the profession and indeed to encourage those already in the profession. But there is a good deal of negative comment on these matters which I believe does no service to the marvellous work done in many of our schools.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I cannot think of anything original to say on the congratulations line except that I totally agree with the noble Baroness that she ought to be looking for a modicum of support from her own side when one considers how two of her noble friends have reacted to certain prospective legislation in the education field. I understand that the reply about sufficient resources being available is yes. In that case, can the noble Baroness say why even her right honourable friend the Secretary of State appears to be worried to a very considerable 869 degree about the effects of the national curriculum on our schools and in particular the extent to which the examination for such assessment seems to be overburdening them? If there are sufficient resources, how can there be the problem about which her right honourable friend is worried?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his unoriginal but nevertheless very welcome congratulations. I understand his concern about the national curriculum. It relates not only to funds but also to the time involved and the enormous challenge that the national curriculum presents to teachers. However, it is important to say that teachers are not starting from scratch. There are considerable skills and resources already available within the teaching profession. The hope is that, together with the new resources that are to be applied, such skills and resources will be adequate for the task in hand. The sooner that these proposals and reforms are put into place to benefit all the children, the better.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, I wish to congratulate the noble Baroness and ask an original question. Is she aware of the enormous drain that is likely to be made on our educational system by the events which have occurred on the other side of what used to be called the Iron Curtain? Has she noticed that Poland is asking for 40,000 teachers of English, that other countries are likely to add considerably to the total and, therefore, that we may experience a considerable drain?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his kind words but his question strays from that on the Order Paper. However, I should be pleased to deal with it if he would be kind enough to table it.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the Minister enlarge on the reply that she gave to my noble friend Lord Mellish, which was that Tower Hamlets has not presented an attractive proposition to teachers?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, teaching in inner London has not been the most attractive proposition. That is, first, because of the housing difficulty and secondly, because of the difficulty presented by the attitude of some LEAs to education in inner London. I shall leave my comments on the report at that.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does my noble friend have any information to give to the House about the demographic trend in relation to pupils, because that must have a bearing on the future demands of teachers?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, if I have understood the question correctly, my noble and learned friend refers to the movement of children around the country. It is a matter for individual LEAs, which are constantly coping with demographic change. In some areas enormous pressure will be applied for the closure of schools while in other perhaps developing areas —such as my own in East Anglia—pressure will be applied for the building of new schools. I am 870 impressed by the way in which many LEAs are grappling with the problem.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I have already congratulated the noble Baroness. In relation to the national curriculum, what does she think about the argument put forward by CIPFA, the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, that implementing the Government's education reforms and other new policies could add 1.5 per cent. to inflation? Does the Minister agree with that and, if so, how will the Government cope with the situation?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not in a position to say immediately whether I agree with the statement. However, when in local government I was trained to treat the comments of CIPFA with caution, but always to take them into account and certainly to use them as a starting point. Again, in deciding whether the statement applies to it, each LEA must make up its own mind in terms of managing its resources.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, I add my words of congratulation to the avalanche which is descending on the head of the noble Baroness and say that I exempt her from replying to that part of my question. However, when considering the provision of adequate teaching facilities for all young people, will she bear in mind the great importance of providing adequte residential accommodation in the form of centres and camping opportunities outside school premises, because they are an essential provision?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord asks me to take that into account and I give him an unequivocal yes.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister prepared to consider recommending to her right honourable friend that the cash limit suggested by the Interim Advisory Committee should be lifted and that a conference of representatives of students, who are becoming angry, local authorities and teachers could make a contribution towards resolving that serious problem in education?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, that is wide of the original Question. I do not intend to ask my right honourable friend to increase the sum of money suggested by the Interim Advisory Committee. All the issues relating to its remit were taken into account.