City Technology Colleges Programme (Hansard, 14 February 1990)

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the city technology colleges programme continues to make excellent progress. Kingshurst CTC opened in 1988 and two more CTCs at Teesside and Nottingham opened in 1989. At least a further 10 colleges will open in 1990 and 1991.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, does the Minister recall that when the scheme was launched the then Secretary of State said that 20 CTCs would be in operation by the end of 1989? Does not the failure to achieve anything like that target relate to the second failure; that is, the inability to attract more than 20 per cent. of private money into what was to be a 100 per cent. private money scheme? The whole business is little short of a scandal. Should not the 80 per cent. of public money which is being poured into these unnecessary schemes be used to repair our crumbling schools?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I think there is a philosophical divide between the noble Lord and the Government on this question. First, the money that is being spent on CTCs is new money and not money which would otherwise have been spent on educational establishments. It has also generated a maximum amount —in fact, an unprecedented amount —of money from commerce and industry to support a most interesting educational innovation. The signs so far are that this innovation is most effective.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, what on earth does the Minister mean in this context by new money?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, by new money I mean that money was extracted from the Treasury to 1377 finance a most interesting educational innovation. If it had not been extracted one cannot assume that it would have been spent on other things in education.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that since this idea was launched about two years ago it has become evident to people wherever they may sit in this House or in another place that the shortage of technologists is very important and that this imaginative arrangement will be welcomed by everyone who tries to recruit people into the technology industries?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my noble friend makes a most valid point. It is true that this programme is proving exceptionally opportune at this time when we need more technologists and scientists. The scheme builds on the arrangements of TVEI which is operating in our schools. However, I believe that it is quite wrong to deny this facility to some of our children if we cannot apply this innovation to all our children at this moment.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is the Minister aware that according to the Government's expenditure plan for 1988–89, the total capital spending on schools was £283 million and the expenditure for city technology colleges was £14 million? However, is she aware that there are 24,000 schools which are receiving £12,000 each whereas the sum of £14 million is spread among at most six colleges? Will she say whether that is fair and whether she believes that situation encourages teachers in most schools? We have had a very bad report from the HMI on the state of school buildings. Can the Minister say whether the financial provision I have described encourages the morale of teachers and students in every other kind of school?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, Question Time allows us to be rather simplistic about our statements on these affairs. It is important to remember that the government allocation for schools is only one part of the process. Local authorities themselves can supplement the sums that are spent on their schools. Another key feature is the way in which local authorities actually manage both repairs and capital spending on their schools.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, is the Minister aware that a number of these new city technology colleges are being established in areas where there is already a great number of surplus places in the secondary schools? Does she not agree that to build new secondary schools in areas where there are already spare places is a ridiculous waste of public money? Does the Minister not further agree that it is particularly strange that the Government should be following this route when for many years they have exhorted local authorities to run their secondary school provision on a more value for money and rational basis?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my right honourable friend and the Government set out to establish these 1378 schools in the areas of greatest need; that is, in the most urban areas of our country. Where there are surplus places in some of those schools, it would help enormously if local authorities were more co-operative in working alongside and joining in the strategy of working a CTC with their own local schools in the area. There has been particular hostility from the teaching profession and the teaching unions in many of our areas. I believe that if they worked more closely with this innovation that would not only benefit those areas where school rolls are declining but also make better use of surplus places in some of our school buildings.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there are many local authorities which have a grave problem; namely, that many of our schools are in danger of falling down? That is their state. Can the Minister say whether local authorities have asked for special consideration from Her Majesty's Government to save the schools from crumbling?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord overstates his case. It is important to say two things. First, I do not believe that there has ever been more money spent on education. The record compares most favourably with that of the party of the noble Lord opposite. Secondly, it is a question of effective management of resources on the part of local education authorities in making the most of the allocation that is given by central government.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it is terribly difficult for teachers to teach in schools which are falling down?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I accept that it is difficult for teachers to teach in schools which are falling down. I said that there was scope for managing resources rather better in many of our schools.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, is the Minister aware that we have spent 20 minutes—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, I suggest that my noble friend puts his question, the noble Lord, Lord Oram, puts his question, and we then pass on to the next Question.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, I was just going to say that we have spent 20 minutes on two Questions.

Lord Oram
My Lords, I shall be one more minute. Is the Minister aware that my noble friend Lord Molloy was not overstating the case as illustrated by the highly unsatisfactory situation in Brighton? There the Government are providing £7.2 million for the building of just one city technology college, whereas there is a great shortage of money for dealing with a backlog of repairs and capital programmes. Does the Minister not agree that that money could be spent to much better educational effect?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, two issues are ignored by that comment. The first is that the benefits that will be brought to Brighton by the existence of a CTC need to be measured once that college is up and running and its contribution to commerce and industry in the area can be assessed. Secondly, the point made by the noble Lord also ignores the enormous contribution that is to be made by commerce and industry to the capital project.