War Widows: Pensions Differential (Hansard, 9 November 1989)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Arran)
My Lords, under the war pensions scheme administered by the Department of Social Security, the pension of a war widow is the same regardless of when her husband served or died. The difference between those whose husbands' service ended before the 31st March 1973 and those whose husbands' service went beyond that date is that the lattter may also receive an attributable pension from the occupational scheme of the MoD. Her Majesty's Government have no plans to widen eligibility for the occupational pension.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, does not the Minister realise that there is a great deal of public opinion and concern on all sides of this House and in the other place regarding the unfairness of a situation where widows of men who were killed in the first two world wars are receiving approximately half of that which is paid to war widows whose husbands have died since 1973? If the occupational element cannot be made retrospective, why not increase the social security element in the payment so as to bring these payments closer together?
I have to ask the Minister why widows of two world wars should be penalised because their husbands were killed before the new arrangements came in? What good does that do? What comfort is that to the widows of the first two wars? I am not necessarily asking that there should be retrospective occupational payments, but I am asking for retrospective justice. As there is agreement on all sides of both Houses, I see no reason why Parliament should not deal sternly with the bureaucratic and legalistic departmental excuses for continuing this injustice.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, perhaps I may immediately say that all Members of your Lordships' House, and the whole of this country, are always aware of the immense and enduring debt of gratitude that we owe to those who laid down their lives during the two world wars, and indeed afterwards. In answer to the noble Baroness, the Government consider that that debt of gratitude is very adequately reflected in the preferential treatment that is given to war widows under the DSS scheme.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is it not difficult to reconcile what my noble friend has very properly said about gratitude with discrimination against the older widow? Is it not the fact that, if anything, the older widows' needs are greater than those of the younger ones? Does my noble friend appreciate that, 946 whatever the technicalities, although the department is responsible for the payments, public opinion finds it impossible to accept that there should be this discrimination?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, this question has been examined on many previous occasions. I understand what my noble friend is saying, but the Government have an excellent record of provision for the more elderly war widows. First, the basic DSS war widows' pension is around 30 per cent. higher than that for widows on the basic state pension. Secondly, it is tax-free. Thirdly, there are special age allowances. Fourthly, those allowances are now also tax-free.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, can the noble Earl say what the cost would be—presumably the decreasing cost —of bringing the pre-1973 war widows up to the level of the post-1973 war widows?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, if the noble Lord is talking about the occupational pension scheme, the cost is thought to be in the region of £200 million. One would also have to associate it with the war disabled, which would bring it up to a further £400 million; making £600 million in all. Furthermore, if that were done, such retrospection would also have to apply to other public sectors.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, are all the 53,000 widows who at present are not receiving the occupational pension widows of men who were killed in action or who died later from wounds? If not, can the Minister say how many of them are and would it not be possible to give them the occupational pension?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I am not certain whether such a table of the specific kind of people the noble Lady mentions exists. If I find it does exist, I will gladly impart that knowledge to her.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, the Minister will be aware from the attention with which his answers have been received that there is a considerable degree not only of sympathy, but of uncertainty regarding the position of the Government. Do the concessions that he announced already apply to the pre-1973 war widows apply also to the post-1973 war widows? If they do, is not the whole point made by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter —namely, the disparity between pre-1973 and post-1973 —the one that matters? I believe we are speaking for a great many people in this House, so will the Minister go back and look at this matter again? There are other ways in which concessions can be made to see whether the position of those before 1973 and those after 1973 can be reconciled. That is the point.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I can understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, but at the same time I ask the noble Lord to accept that this case has been examined in very great depth by the Govenment on many previous occasions and will continue to be examined by the Government. 947 There is no one better qualified than the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, to know that in any government there are priorities and the merits of each priority have to be examined very carefully.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that successive governments have failed to have proper and comprehensive discussions with the Royal British Legion, which is a specialist body in these matters? That organisation can guide any government on the proper course that they should take. Will the Minister be prepared to take the matter back to the department for the question to be looked at?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, that representations are made quite regularly by the Royal British Legion and that consultation does take place.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, if the current £619 per annum of subsidy to each higher rate taxpayer were done away with by limiting tax relief on mortgage interest to the standard rate of tax, there would be plenty of revenue available for equalising war widows' pensions and for many other desirable measures as well?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, as I said before, I ask the noble Lord to appreciate and understand that there are many priorities. This particular priority has been looked at but, in the light of circumstances, other priorities have taken precedence.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, I understand the Minister to be saying that it is a question of cost, because he also refers to priorities. I am well aware of that and that is why, in my first Budget as Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1964, I relieved many of the difficulties of war widows by easing the burden on their earnings. I regarded the problem as a top priority. If it is a question of cost, I ask the Minister whether he will look again at the situation in order to see whether there is a way of introducing a change by stages. It has been done before. As the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, said, the problem is, alas, one that will diminish as time passes. I believe that the Minister would be doing the whole House a favour if he looked at the matter again, told the Treasury to produce the arguments, and, if it is a question of cost, asked the Treasury to find some graduated scheme to meet the situation.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I understand the position of the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, and the question that he asks. I appreciate the feelings of your Lordships' House. In the circumstances. I shall draw to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State the points that have been made.

§ Viscount Eccles
My Lords, if the Government are to reconsider the position of these elderly widows, will they also please remember Members of Parliament who retired from the other place before 1964? We receive a pension that is a minute fraction of the pension received by those who retired after 1964.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, that really is another question.