HL Deb 09 November 1989 vol 512 cc942-4

3.25 p.m.

Baroness Nicol asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will outline the arrangements to be made for commissioning and carrying out the areas of research currently co-ordinated or conducted by the Nature Conservancy Council; and receiving advice on meeting the United Kingdom's obligations under international wildlife conservation treaties and conventions, following the proposed break up of the council.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, the Government are giving detailed consideration to these matters at present. A statement will be made in due course.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that rather predictable reply. Will the Government take on board the importance of keeping political independence in scientific research? Can he say that the Government will be quite sure to consider that centring any such political research in a government department would make it vulnerable to political pressure? Is that one of the considerations about which the Government are thinking?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that in no way are we considering political pressure. We are well aware of our obligations and we wish them to be fulfilled. The reason we have decided to divide between Scotland, Wales and England is that there is a world of difference between Ballater and Basingstoke.

Baroness Nicol

My Lords, I believe that there is a misunderstanding of my supplementary question. I was not suggesting that the Government were directly putting on political pressure. I was asking the Government to consider that in the future it would be better not to have any research body centred in a government department because it would be vulnerable.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, our ambitions are merely to be more responsive. We have no desire to centre any research in a government department. Our desires are very straightforward in order to provide a more responsive approach so that both Wales and Scotland can achieve their own ambitions towards the countryside and conservation more efficiently than they do at present.

Lord Craigton

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is serious concern and conflicting opinion about this matter? As a measure of that serious concern there are applications from all five major conservation bodies and all six statutory organisations, four for nature conservation and two for the countryside, to attend the meeting of the all-party conservation group at 4 o'clock today in the Moses Room. As always, Members of your Lordships' House and another place are welcome to attend.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am not sure whether it is appropriate for the Minister to take advantage of the advertisement to attend such a meeting. However, I assure your Lordships' House that we are receiving comments and suggestions from many knowledgeable people and organisations and we are listening to all of them.

Baroness Strange

My Lords, after the commercial, I ask the Minister whether research into sandeels will continue after the split. If so, which part of the Nature Conservancy Council will be responsible for monitoring the research?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I believe it is true to say that my noble friend the Minister of State for Scotland is he who commands full respect of sandeels.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, is it not a fact that the Government are proceeding along this course without any consultation whatever with the people involved before arriving at a decision? Bearing in mind that over the past 10 years the Government have, in most cases, set their face quite rigidly against any form of devolution, why are they going in the opposite direction now? Is it not a fact that good judges on this subject are fearful that there may be some very damaging consequences as a result of this exercise?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, as I said in my earlier remarks, we are responding to the differences that exist in different parts of the kingdom. I refer the noble Lord, Lord Dean of Beswick, to my earlier answer when I made it absolutely clear that we are engaged in heavy consultation and listening to those representations that are made on this matter.

Lord Dean of Beswick

My Lords, that answer is misleading. From what the Minister said, the Government are engaged in consultations, but they are not about the decision to disband the present set-up. The consultations are on meeting the demands that the Government are making and carrying out the exercise. They are not about the decision, and I do not think that that can be classed as consultation.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I can respond in only two ways. First, we believe that this answers a desire both in Scotland and in Wales. Secondly, I fear that the position of the noble Lord, Lord Dean, may be at odds with the Members of his party in another place who I am told support this decision.

The Viscount of Falkland

My Lords, can the noble Lord answer a question on a specific area of research —that of the problems of the breeding of sea birds around our shores? This was previously conducted by the chief scientist's directorate of the Nature Conservancy Council. Will this kind of research be farmed out to universities? It is unlikely to be carried out in a government department, so how does the Minister see that kind of research continuing?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, we shall ensure that the new bodies have adequate scientific expertise. That expertise will be properly resourced because I should remind your Lordships that, under the current Government, since 1979 the Nature Conservancy Council's resources and expenditure have increased by 150 per cent. in real terms.

Baroness David

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House what the responses were, which had to be in by 30th September, to the consultation paper issued by the Scottish development department? Is it the case that 48 were opposed and 26 had reservations?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I have to admit to the noble Baroness that I do not have the responses ratio to which she referred. I will of course write to her.

Baroness White

My Lords, can it be explained why Scotland has had this consultation document and the Welsh Office has refused to issue anything?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, even if there was no consultation document any voice in Wales that wishes to be heard will be listened to, as I said earlier.