§ 2.59 p.m.
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ How they reconcile the statement of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (House of Lords Official Report, 9th May, col. 543) that he had "no knowledge of any 399 nuclear waste" in the waters around the Channel Islands with the statement of the Minister for the Armed Forces (House of Commons Official Report, 9th May, cols. 375–6) that the area "was used by the United Kingdom … for the disposal of low grade radioactive waste from 1950 to 1963".
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, when I made my statement on 9th May I did not know that there was radioactive waste in the area where the French were conducting their search for a missing container of lindane. I am sorry if, inadvertently, I misled the House. I was fully aware that the Hurd Deep had been thoroughly examined by French naval minehunters and submersibles as part of their search, albeit without success. I have no reason to believe that this was affected by any constraints other than depth and current.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I unreservedly accept the apology of the noble Lord. However, does he agree that the misinformation that he gave the House——
§ Lord Hatch of Lusby——misled us from the thrust of the Question that I was asking? Does the noble Lord remember that he added that I should ask the French about the presence of nuclear waste? According to his colleague in the Government, the Minister for Armed Services, the French had been in touch with the Ministry of Defence. I was asking—and it is still a relevant question—that when the search for this most highly toxic container was called off was there any suggestion that it was being called off for fear of disturbing the nuclear waste which we now know had been placed in that area by British Governments between 1950 and 1963?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am sorry if I misinformed the noble Lord. As I said in my original Answer, I had no knowledge of the radioactive waste that was in the area. Nor, I would submit, was it necessary for me to have such knowledge. As I have said, the presence of those materials did not affect in any way the thorough search which the French made of this area.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether or not the waters in and around the Channel Islands are safe to drink? If they are, what are we on about?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I would not advise the noble Lord to drink salt water. However, the waters are certainly not contaminated. There is no sign of contamination from the missing container.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, quite apart from my noble friend's statement the other day, because there is so much radioactivity in the sea anyway, can my noble friend reassure us that this low grade radioactive waste which was disposed of there has made any difference?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I can say that the waste is low grade and the danger to humans is considered to be negligible.
§ Lord Irving of DartfordMy Lords, we are very grateful to the noble Lord for his apology. However, is he aware that there is some concern about co-ordination between government departments and whether or not it is adequate in such a case as this? What does the noble Lord propose to do to make sure that this kind of misunderstanding does not happen again?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as I made clear at the time when I was answering the noble Lord's Question, this search area is the responsibility of the French and not of the British Government. The French were told by the Ministry of Defence of the presence this material. There was no need for my department to be aware of that information.
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that every single Member of this noble House is radioactive, including the noblest of us all, the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack? For my own part, in some three weeks I shall have lived 81 years with my own radioactivity and so far it has not done me any harm.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I can certainly confirm—I am sure that all noble Lords would agree—that the noble Earl is looking most healthy despite the radioactivity.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, is the Minister now aware that the sea beds around the Channel Islands are contaminated not only with nuclear waste which has been dumped there by British governments over 13 years, but also with conventional weapons and explosives which have been dumped there ever since the Second World War? Will he inform the House whose responsibility it is to clean this sea bed? Will the Government do anything to make those waters safer for the people living in that area and for the people who use transport across it?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as I have tried to say, there is a very little risk indeed from this low grade material which was dumped in this site 25 years ago. The location was chosen because of the depth of water and the narrowness of the deep which would contain the munitions and nuclear waste and prevent their movement on the sea bed. I think that I can give a reasonable assurance that there is no danger in this regard.
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us who will be responsible for the radioactivity liberated by the next eruption of Mount Vesuvius?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I think that the answer would be the Almighty.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, is there not a great deal of misunderstanding about low level 401 radioactivity? Does not the waste consist of pairs of gloves that have been used in hospitals, and other such items, with only a slight suspicion of radioactivity.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, my noble friend is quite right. I understand that this waste consists mainly of test tubes from hospitals, gloves, overalls and so on. They are packed in metal drums and then filled with concrete. There is therefore very little danger of any escape.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, will the noble Lord answer the question that I asked him in my second supplementary question: Is he now aware that, in addition to radioactive waste, there has been the dumping of conventional weapons ever since the end of the war? Who will be responsible for cleaning up the waste that has now been dumped in this area across the Channel?
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, this Question relates entirely to radioactive waste.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has obviously read my honourable friend's reply in another place, he will see that the munitions have not been dumped since the war. They were dumped between 1946 and about 1971. The answer is that nobody is intending to clean it up.