Soviet Chemical Weapons: CND Attitude (Hansard, 17 May 1989)

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, we have received no such representations.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for such a simple and direct Answer. Has he any information as to why an organisation which never seems to cease voicing its disapproval of almost every policy of a military nature throughout the world should remain mysteriously silent on such an important matter as this?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, far be it from me to offer explanations as to the attitudes of such persons, but I think it is noteworthy that CND goes to considerable lengths to complain about Western policies in almost every area. We hear rather less from it about equally disagreeable policies from the other side of the Iron Curtain.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is not the Soviet Government the only one still to have a large stockpile of chemical weapons? Could this not be pointed out to Mr. Gorbachev as something on which the sincerity of his intentions is at stake?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend. Our estimate is that the Soviet Government's stockpile is many times the figure they have confessed to. Indeed, until recently they had not confessed to any. We think it very important that the Soviet Union should join the international efforts to achieve a worldwide and verifiable ban upon these weapons.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, as the noble Lord has widened the issue beyond the Question to the attitude of CND to Western defence in general, is he aware that a leading member of CND was invited to the Soviet Union to witness the destruction of some of its nuclear weapons and was told afterwards that CND had played an important part in the agreement by which both the Soviet Union and the United States were reducing the number of their nuclear weapons?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am sorry to have to say that CND is among those who get the wool pulled over their eyes by the Soviet Union rather 1172 too easily. I am afraid that this was one of those occasions.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that CND is in fact composed in the main of extremely sincere people who have a perfect right to their views? However, having said that, can we get down to the realities of the position? What is the present position in the talks on chemical weapons in Geneva? Can he say whether chemical weapons were the subject of discussion when the American Secretary of State met NATO representatives the other day?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there have been a number of discussions recently about the Soviet attitude towards an international ban on chemical weapons. As the noble Lord will be aware, discussions are going on in Geneva on this matter. They have been going on for a very long time and have not yet achieved any worthwhile progress. We think that the way forward is for all parties to ensure that those talks do now achieve some progress. We invite the Soviet Union to contribute to that end. The fact of the matter is that its present posture in being so secretive about its own position is not helping.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, when our British scientists from Porton Down visited Shikhany, were they shown all of the Soviet chemical weapons?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as my noble friend rightly says, there was a visit of Western experts to Shikhany last year. There was also a visit of Soviet experts to the British establishment at Porton Down. We were quite open with our Soviet visitors and answered all the questions that we could. The Soviets, by contrast, were very secretive when our experts visited their establishment. I would refer my noble friend to the reference to that visit in this year's Defence White Paper.

The Viscount of Oxfuird
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the complex at Shikhany has one chemicals facility which I understand our delegation was not allowed to see?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, my noble friend is quite correct. A part of the establishment which we had detected by means of aerial imagery, a point drawn to the attention of our Soviet hosts, was said to be off limits, and a visit to that area was not permitted.