Hospitals: Disposal of Land (Hansard, 9 May 1989)

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I do not understand the noble Lord's reference to hospitals opting out of the National Health Service. On the assumption that he is referring to self-governing hospitals, the recent White Paper makes clear that these will remain firmly within the NHS. The White Paper also explains that self-governing hospitals will be free to make use of their assets to provide health care and to dispose of assets, subject only to a reserve power for the Secretary of State to intervene if a disposal would be against the public interest.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. As regards hospitals in or out of the NHS, if Her Majesty's Government feel that the value of the land is so great that it ought to be sold and these hospitals refuse to do so, can he definitely confirm that they will not have the equivalent amount of money deducted from the national fund from which they require money to continue their existence?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, again I am afraid I do not entirely understand the noble Lord. There is no advantage in the NHS spending money on maintaining or securing surplus property which could be better spent on patient services. I stress two 546 points. First, only surplus land will be sold, and that is true of both self-governing or other hospitals. No health authority will be made to sell land for which it has a use. Secondly, all proceeds of sales are retained by the NHS. In the year 1988–89 about £280 million was raised.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that yesterday was the closing date for hospitals to indicate their wish to opt out, or whatever phrase he wishes to use? Will he also explain how decisions on opting out, or whatever other term he likes to use, will be taken to ensure that the wishes of the community are met rather than those of some small special interest group? Will there be some sort of workplace ballot or some other procedure enabling people to express their views on whether opting out is a good thing.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lords knows perfectly well that I did not use the phrase "opting out", and nor will I use those words. These hospitals are not opting out; they will be self-governing hospitals.
As regards the date of 8th May, that is the final date for expressions of interest but it is not, so to speak, written in tablets of stone and we will continue to accept expressions of interest. Indeed, we have had a great many expressions of interest, as the noble Lord knows. On consultation, the Secretary of State will take into account the views of all staff and certainly he would not want any hospitals to have self-governing status without the active support of the doctors and the local community.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, can the Minister say how these views will be assessed? How will the Secretary of State know the views of the various groups?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord is going beyond the Question on the Order Paper, but we should like to hear from individual members of the public as well as from local pressure groups.

§ Lord Nugent of Guildford
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that over 100 hospitals have indicated that they would like to become self-governing? If so, is he aware that that is encouraging news because there is no doubt that self-governing hospitals will be able to play a much greater part in the health service?

§ Lord Henley
Yes, my Lords, over 100 hospitals have expressed interest from every region in the country.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, is not the important issue not so much whether surplus hospital land is sold but to whom it is sold and for what purpose? Does not the noble Lord agree that much hospital land, particularly the land surrounding some of the large mental hospitals which are scheduled for closure, is potentially valuable amenity and recreational land, often in built-up urban areas? Can he tell the House whether efforts will be made to ensure that such land is retained for those purposes?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I cannot give that assurance. Certainly in selling off land we should like to obtain as much money as possible. As I said, the money is for the National Health Service.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, will the noble Lord explain in clear language who actually takes a decision in local hospitals to opt out, or self-govern if that is the phrase? Is it not more desirable that where a hospital belongs to a district the inhabitants of the district should decide and not just a few people?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I have already answered that question. Anyone can express interest in a hospital opting out. The final decision will be taken by the Secretary of State after he has listened to consultations from the local community and staff.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, will the noble Lord return to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Molloy? Is not the difference that in the past when the authorities sold off land they kept a large part of the proceeds at local authority level? Now when they are forced to sell, the Government put the money into the national purse and do what they like with it.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the Government put the money into the National Health Service. I made that perfectly clear. In the case of self-governing hospitals the money goes to the self-governing hospital.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, the noble Lord said that applications had been received for self-governing status from every region in the country. I understood that the Oxford region had not put in applications. Is my understanding wrong?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord no doubt read a report in The Times of yesterday which as far as I can remember indicated that in the Northern and Oxford regions there were no formal expressions of interest. That is incorrect. There have been expressions of interest from both regions.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister prepared to request from his right honourable friend in another place that consideration be given to the following? Over the past four years there has been a dramatic increase of Britons waiting for hospital beds. The total has now reached 691,000. Therefore, would it not be wise and prudent for some of the surplus hospital land to be used to construct more wards and make a contribution to reducing the abominable waiting lists which have developed over the past four years?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, the noble Lord knows perfectly well that we had a Question on that last week. His question goes quite beyond the Question on the Order Paper. He knows very well that this Government have been engaged in one of the biggest hospital building programmes since the creation of the NHS.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, my question has everything to do with the Question on the Order Paper. It is concerned with the land which might be regarded as surplus and then flogged off to the highest bidder. I am saying that it should be used to help shorten NHS waiting lists. I hope that the entire House agrees with that.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I shall pass on the noble Lord's comments to my right honourable friend.