Ozone Layer: Protection (Hansard, 22 March 1989)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)
My Lords, the "Saving the Ozone Layer" London conference will give a political boost to the first meeting of the parties to the Montreal Protocol which will be held in Helsinki in May and will begin the process of reviewing the protocol. We hope that 684 at the second meeting of the parties in London next year tougher measures will be agreed.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his Answer. I congratulate the Government on the way in which the London conference has concentrated attention on this disturbing subject. What is the prospect of obtaining the necessary changes in China and in developing countries which are planning substantial increases in refrigeration units as a significant part of their domestic economic programmes?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the Government agree that it is absolutely crucial that the larger developing countries should join the Montreal Protocol. We appreciate the desire of such countries to develop and enjoy the benefits of refrigeration. The London conference aimed to show that it will be possible to do so without using harmful CFCs. At the conference Brazil undertook to become a party, while China, the Asian countries and the members of the Gulf Co-operation Council said that they would also give it serious consideration. The Montreal Protocol includes provisions to help developing countries. The first meeting of the parties in Helsinki will examine how to take these proposals forward.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, do the Government agree with the delegates to the conference from China and India that as the developed countries have created almost all the emissions which have been attacking the ozone layer, it is the responsibility of the developed countries to assist the developing countries in paying the extra costs that will be necessary in order to develop refrigeration free of CFCs?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware from my previous answer, the Montreal Protocol fully accepts that we must look after the interests of the less developed countries. As all noble Lords will know, if everyone in China acquired a refrigerator the prospective emissions would be a large multiple of anything produced in the United Kingdom. One of the objects of the conference was to get an extraordinary number of people and countries together in order to address the problems and to find out what those countries felt should be done to assist them.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, am I not right in thinking that, at least in theory, it is possible to manufacture devices which actually generate ozone? In addition to the restrictive measures, has consideration been given to the possibility of sending up such devices into the stratosphere to generate new ozone to replace the lost ozone?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I believe that it is possible to create ozone, but there are some difficulties in getting up into the atmosphere to do so.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, in his answer to me the noble Lord said that one of the objects of the conference was to hear what the developing countries 685 want. China, India and other developing countries have stated quite clearly what they want. What is the Government's attitude to the demands made by China and India that the developing countries should be assisted in developing refrigeration free from CFCs? What is the Government's attitude? What will they do to help the developing countries?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the first thing the Government did to help the developing countries was to call the conference and provide the initiative. The second point that must be faced up to is that at the moment we do not have available direct swaps for CFCs. We are looking, for instance, at technology transfers, but these are early days yet.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, is the damage to the ozone layer thought to be already affecting the climate? If so, is it responsible for the excellent winter which the south of England is enjoying? If the climate continues to improve, is there any possibility that we shall have better weather even in Scotland?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in answer to the last part of the noble Lord's question, I doubt whether that would ever be possible.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, what discussions are taking place with producers of CFCs here and in other countries, particularly those that have subsidiaries in under-developed countries? Is there full co-operation with the industry so far as he is aware? I do not refer simply to our own producers.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that the object of the exercise from this country's point of view is to eliminate eventually the production of CFCs. Notable companies are already engaged in a dialogue, but we still have a long way to go.

§ Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the indiscriminate cutting of the Amazon rain forest may be causing an ecological disaster of almost equal proportions to that caused by the depletion of the ozone layer? Do the Government have any plans for an international conference on this subject?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, that question I feel, is just a little wide of the one on the Order Paper.