Food (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (Hansard, 21 March 1989)

§ Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, the Minister has quite rightly drawn the attention of the House to the fact that the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills is satisfied that this draft order is pure consolidation. Therefore, it would be quite improper for me to comment on the contents of the order, as it is a consolidation measure. Nevertheless, I wish to ask about half a dozen questions concerning this important area of policy in Northern Ireland.

Food and its quality and safety is a lively issue of the day. I have half a dozen questions for the Minister. I also wish to acknowledge that the questions are very much based on the speech of my noble friend Lord Gallacher in the debate on food production in your Lordships' House on 1st March 1989.

First, we note that the order is being introduced five years after the Food Act 1984. That was also a consolidation measure but for England and Wales. Can the Minister persuade us that it was necessary to wait five years for this order?

Secondly, extensive consultations are currently under way in England and Wales to pave the way for a new food Bill. That Bill is not far off. Is the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland consumer organisations involved in those discussions?

Thirdly, perhaps the Minister can tell us to what extent the consumer bodies in Northern Ireland are involved in the formulation of new food policies. Will he also tell us what steps are being taken by his department—the noble Lord is the Minister for Agriculture for Northern Ireland—to stimulate debate on the safety and quality of food, on the safety and quality in production and on safeguarding standards of hygiene at all stages of the food chain, including the farm, the shop and the kitchen?

Fourthly, is the Minister satisfied that the provisions of Article 15, based as they are on the conditions and habits of the early 'eighties, are strong enough to cater for new developments such as cooked chilled meals, which are growing in demand and popularity rapidly?

Fifthly, in the debate on food production my noble friends Lord Gallacher and Lord Carter drew attention to the nationwide shortage of environmental health officers and to their training. Can the Minister tell us whether there are enough environmental health officers in Northern Ireland to ensure that the provisions of the order are properly implemented? If the department is not satisfied with the position, how does it propose to recruit and train or retrain more staff?

656 Sixthly, we on these Benches are anxious that Northern Ireland should have the benefit with the minimum of delay of the new legislation which is in prospect for England and Wales. Another delay of four years would be highly regrettable and unjustifiable. We hope that the department will hear this plea. If such delay on this bread-and-butter issue, if ever there was one, is an inevitable consequence of the present system of government of the Province, that is another powerful argument for injecting life into an elected Assembly for the Province.

I believe that the orders we have been discussing this evening demonstrate, in their different ways, the need for the political parties in Northern Ireland to work as a matter of urgency towards an internal settlement, and towards an Assembly to which, having regard to the response of the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, to my earlier comment on the first order, could be devolved adequate legislative powers.

§ Lord Lyell

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, for the attention which he has paid to the order before us this evening. I am sure that he and your Lordships will accept that I have been guided by the opinion of the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills. However, I shall answer as far as I can the queries raised by the noble Lord, and if there are any further points I shall write to him.

The noble Lord asked why it had taken so long for the order to be introduced. There has been a great deal of subordinate legislation, to which I referred, in addition to the 1959 Act and the 1979 order, which has been considered by your Lordships' House and in another place as well as by the Assembly when that organisation was in operation. We felt that it was right to consolidate all those measures and to bring them before your Lordships this evening.

The noble Lord went on to ask me whether consumer organisations were involved in the current consultations in relation to a new food Bill which may be proposed for England and Wales. Departments in the Northern Ireland Office are playing a monitoring role in the consultations. I have no doubt that when conclusions are reached by the committee which is looking into food hygiene we shall take note of the recommendations and do what we can to enact those provisions which are relevant to Northern Ireland as swiftly as possible. I have been in close touch with the consumer organisations on many aspects of food hygiene but I cannot say whether we are in touch with them in relation to those consultations. I imagine that we are. I shall endeavour to obtain more information and advise the noble Lord in writing.

The noble Lord drew my attention to Article 15 relating to cooked and chilled foods. Last night I was fortunate to see a programme on television, which was not broadcast in England and Wales or in Scotland, dealing with all the aspects of cooked and chilled food. That programme, which was viewed widely in Northern Ireland, and frequent articles in the press have drawn attention to the matter of cooked and chilled food and the need for hygiene in the preparation of food. We believe that Article 15 657 is adequate but we shall be looking to see whether there is anything further that we need to do in line with consultations taking place elsewhere. If I have any further information on that aspect I shall write to the noble Lord.

He asked about heightened awareness of food hygiene. Both my own department, the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland, and the Department of Health and Social Services are working together on food hygiene. Both departments are very much involved with the implementation of the regulations in Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord also asked how long it would be before the Department of Health and Social Services and the Northern Ireland Office would he able to introduce any proposed legislation similar to that which might be introduced in England and Wales as a result of the conclusions of the committee which is now considering the matter of food hygiene and food preparation. I can only say to the noble Lord, "Wait and see". I hope that both he and I will still be available to discuss that aspect. I was particularly taken by the noble Lord's pun that this was a bread and butter affair. If he looks through the bulk of the order, he will see that it is not just a question of chilled butter, or the contents thereof, let alone what can happen to bread if one does not preserve it properly.

The order before us this evening is purely a matter of consolidation. I assure your Lordships that we are working very closely with other organisations and committees which are looking at the matter of food hygiene elsewhere in the United Kingdom. If I have missed any of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, I shall be in touch with him in writing. I commend the order to your Lordships.