EC Lingua Scheme (Hansard, 12 June 1989)

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the Government will play their due part in the implementation of the Lingua programme in the form agreed by Community education Ministers on 22nd May. They will also encourage education institutions, businesses and other eligible organisations in the United Kingdom to make full use of the opportunities offered by the programme for the development of foreign language skills.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Can he tell the House how he believes that the Lingua programme as it now is can help to improve the appalling record that we have in the teaching of modern languages in our schools? In France 82 per cent. of school leavers and in Germany 91 per cent. of school leavers have studied English. In this country 41 per cent. have studied French, and 11 per cent. have studied German.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, there are more people speaking English in the world than French or German. I believe that to be a truth. The decision text refers to encouraging all citizens to acquire a working knowledge of foreign languages in place of an earlier reference to two foreign languages. The Government certainly hope to see a growing number of people in the United Kingdom able to communicate in more than one foreign language; but they are not prepared to see an implied commitment to such a policy enshrined in Community legislation.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, can the Minister say whether it is seriously the view of the Government (as the beginning of the noble Viscount's last reply seemed to indicate) that because we are fortunate enough in this country, with the advantage of the United States in this regard as an ally, to have triumphed over French as a world language, it is reasonable to sit back and say: everybody should speak English and we shall do nothing about speaking any other languages?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I did not say that everyone should speak English. I said that English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world. The Government also must have regard both to the United Kingdom's wider trading interests and to the large number of languages spoken by minority groups within the United Kingdom population. Therefore the Government would not in any case be willing to constrain their policy by reference to the definition of foreign languages employed in the Lingua programme.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, irrespective of percentages and the numbers of people with English as their cradle or second language, does my noble friend not agree that the standards of performance achieved in foreign languages in English (and I daresay Scottish) schools is lamentably low? Does the Minister not agree that we need to improve the standards to a very great extent in order to sell our goods and services abroad?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I agree entirely. The whole purpose of the Education Reform Act in this direction is to improve education in foreign languages.

§ Viscount Montgomery of Alamein
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the second most widely spoken international language in the world is Spanish? Is he further aware that a great deal of work has been undertaken by the Hispanic and Luso-Brazilian Council—which was, incidentally, founded by my noble friend's father—to promote the teaching of Spanish and Portuguese? Will the Government recognise that this work, and the teaching of these languages, is of vital importance?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, yes.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does the Government not agree that it is unfortunate that the national curriculum lays down that there should be one language taught, and that the teaching of it shall not start until the age of 11; whereas most people would believe that the sooner one starts a foreign language, the better?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the Government's objective on agreeing to the Lingua programme was to distinguish vocational education, and education after the age of 16, from general school education. That has been achieved.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that from the point of view of the national interest it might well be better if young people were encouraged to learn Japanese, Mandarin, Russian or Arabic in preference to Danish, Flemish or modern Greek, or even in preference to French, German or Italian, desirable though the latter undoubtedly are from a purely cultural point of view?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I have before me Schedule 2, which was issued by the department quite recently, which shows that Japanese, Punjabi, Russian, Turkish, Urdu, Hindi, Hebrew, Gujerati, 1126 Chinese, Bengali and Arabic are all available if the school in question has a foundation subject in one of the other languages.

§ Lord Cockfield
My Lords, I wonder——

§ Lord Ardwick
My Lords, is there not——

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, we cannot all speak at once. Let us try the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, first.

§ Lord Ardwick
My Lords, is there not a national phobia about foreign languages as is evidenced by the fact that the moment a foreign statesman comes on radio or television and tries to say a few words in his own language it is immediately smothered by a translator? Does not the same thing apply in reverse? When the Queen or the Queen Mother attempt to say a few words in French immediately they are drowned by the translator. Will the noble Viscount say something to his friends in radio and television about this?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I think the short answer is Oui and Ja.

§ Lord Cockfield
My Lords, will my noble friend kindly expand on his reply to the first supplementary question? He said that it was the Government's view that it was not appropriate for British citizens to learn to speak more than one foreign language.

§ Viscount Davidson
I did not say that, my Lords. I said that under the Lingua scheme all languages are available, but that they are now distinguished, for vocational education and education after the age of 16, from general school education. General school education is a different matter from the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that in connection with the Lingua scheme it has been reported that his right honourable friend the Secretary of State has said that the European Commission has no locus standi on educational matters? Is it the Government's view that the Commission has no locus standi on education matters? Is that a correct interpretation of the Treaty of Rome?

§ Viscount Davidson
No, my Lords, it is not a correct interpretation. The Government do not oppose the idea of people learning two languages in appropriate circumstances, but they were not prepared to have the Community saying that this should be so, far less requiring that those languages should be Community languages.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that not only is our standard of foreign language speaking deplorable, but our standard of English speaking is equally deplorable? Is not the best way of learning good English to study comparative grammar in languages such as Latin, Greek, and so on?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I agree entirely with the noble Earl.

§ Lord Ritchie of Dundee
My Lords, while at a pinch one can understand the objection to the EC directive that three languages should be taught in our schools, what conceivable reason can there be for an objection to exchange visits, partially funded by the Lingua scheme, between member countries?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I have not heard of any objection to school exchanges. When they are properly planned to build on the curriculum they can contribute a great deal. But we do not need the Community to organise our school exchanges for us. Exchanges are much better arranged on a bilateral basis, and we have a flourishing and expanding programme of exchanges with a growing number of countries. I hope that that will be one way in which our knowledge of foreign languages is expanded.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, is not the real objection to the scheme that it is regarded as an interference with our sovereign rights?

§ Viscount Davidson
That is the first time I have heard that suggestion, my Lords.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that those of us who were taught to learn English did not find the task too difficult?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I must congratulate the noble and learned Lord on his brilliant English.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, is it not true that this Government more than all their predecessors have done more for the teaching of languages in schools by making a foreign language compulsory in the curriculum? This does not preclude the learning of a second language. Would it not be better to concentrate energies on securing more teachers of foreign languages and improving the teaching of foreign languages?

§ Viscount Davidson
Yes, my Lords, I agree entirely with my noble friend.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, perhaps I may follow up my first supplementary question about how the Lingua programme will benefit those in schools now. Is the Minister aware that according to DES figures we shall be short of 2,500 modern language teachers by 1995? How will this be put right so that even one modern language can be taught?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I should think that 1992 will help to a considerable extent in reducing the shortage of foreign language teachers.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that it has been remarkably demonstrated in a number of our primary schools that children of a primary school age have no difficulty in acquiring an extraordinary facility with two foreign languages? Is it not a terrible pity to waste that incipient knowledge by not carrying it on in the secondary stage for all our young people?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, all things are learnt much better at a young age than they are learnt later on in life. It might interest the House to know that I was able to speak French before I could speak English.

§ Lord Ritchie of Dundee
My Lords, in pursuance of the point just raised by my noble friend Lord Hunt, is the Minister aware that this is because the power of mimicry, which is of paramount importance in language learning, is at its peak at primary school age and later is less good?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, having just had a quick look at the original Question on the Order Paper, I am afraid I have to say that that question has moved a long way from it.