Air Traffic: Runway Capacity (Hansard, 24 July 1989)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, we are now considering advice submitted last week by the Civil Aviation Authority on traffic distribution policy for airports serving the London area. The authority is preparing further advice on the adequacy of UK airport capacity in the period to 2005. This work is in response to commissions given to the authority last year by my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in thanking my noble friend for that reply, am Ito understand from it that Her Majesty's Government now accept that an additional runway, or additional runways, will be required in the South East by the end of the century? In view of the long time that it takes from a decision to a runway becoming operational, can my noble friend say what the Government are doing about it?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we have to consider the advice which will be given to us next year by the CAA. This is complex and difficult work and we must therefore be sure that the eventual decisions are based on thoroughly researched and considered advice.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, can the Minister assist us further? It was my understanding that last July the Secretary of State wrote to the Civil Aviation Authority asking for this information. Am I not correct in saying that the Secretary of State asked for the advice by July 1989? Can the Minister now say why we are faced with another 12-month delay before this advice is tendered? Does he not feel that a period of two years in preparing advice is disgraceful? The Minister should not have accepted such a delay.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said, we have received part of the advice which we asked for. The CAA has realised—and it has consulted widely—that this is an extremely complicated and difficult issue. The question is not just whether we need a new runway but where it should be if one is needed. There are complicated air traffic control problems involved. Therefore, the CAA felt that it needed longer to formulate its advice to us.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, the Minister does not need to tell me that. I am well aware of it. I am sorry that the Minister looks harassed, but does he not realise that there is no feeling of urgency about this matter? Until the Ministry of Transport, if it is the responsible department, realises that the need is urgent we shall just go on and on waiting. Why did the Minister accept a further delay of 12 months from what was originally stated?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I hope I do not give the appearance of looking harassed. Hot I may be, but harassed I hope I am not.
It is a very complicated subject. If the CAA had felt able to give its advice within the original year then it would have done so. It consulted extremely widely. There was considerable input into that consultation from the regional airports, which made their views very well known. It also referred to the problems of traffic control. As I said, it is important that when we receive the advice it should be the right advice. This is an issue which will be of immense importance in the year 2000 and beyond, and therefore it is important that we get it right.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is it not a fact that the CAA, in its news release of 18th July, emphasised the uncertainties of forecasting? It also said that the further advice which the Minister mentioned will be given next summer, will include forecasts on air space and airport capacity and will take into account the role to be played by airports outside the South East. Are not those extremely important matters on which we should await the information from the CAA?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
That is right, my Lords. That is why we are firm in our opinion that the advice should be the best advice we can get.

§ Baroness Macleod of Borve
My Lords, can my noble friend the Minister assist us on the interim period before a runway is operational? Can he tell us what is happening about Stansted? When will it be completely operational? How many more people will it be able to take in the future?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. In 1991 Stansted will become operational to a much greater extent than it is now. Therefore, effectively it will be a new runway in the London area. By 1991, when the terminal and the rail link are completed, the first phase will handle 8 million passengers a year. Subject to parliamentary approval, that figure will rise to 15 million passengers a year. Subject to planning approval, there could be the possibility of a second terminal which would take it up to about 20 million passengers.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the provision of additional runway capacity in the South East is not universally popular, especially among those living around airports and along airport flight paths? Will the Government take that into consideration? When considering the 1121 provision of additional air space and runway capacity, will the Government take into account that there should be co-ordination between air transport and surface transport? That is the only way to solve the total problem of transportation in this country.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as regards the first part of the noble Lord's question, I am certainly aware that the provision of new runway capacity may not be universally popular with everyone living in the South East of England. As regards surface transport links, that aspect must be taken into account. For Stansted there will be a new rail link to the airport. There are proposals before your Lordships' House for a new rail link to Heathrow Airport. There are also associated studies of the road networks in those areas.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me when a decision will be made on the various east London river crossings? The height of those bridges could have an effect on the short take-off and landing airfield in the City. This could have a tremendous economic effect on people from the City going to foreign capitals. The east London river crossing could prevent the BAe HS146 and future aircraft using the airport. That would be a considerable restriction in the future, whereas those aircraft are quiet and meet the International Civil Aviation Organisation regulations.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend will not have to wait much longer for my right honourable friend's decision concerning the east London river crossing bridge.

§ Lord Marshall of Leeds
My Lords, is the Minister aware that when, in 1974, the Labour Government came to power, they declared that there was no foreseeable need for any future airport facilities or capability in the South East and that there would not be for the next 20 years, and that I, as chairman of the Maplin Development Authority, was then sent for and told that the project was scrapped?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I was not aware that the party opposite had said that when they were in power in 1974. What they could not take into account was the enormous boom in economic activity encouraged by the policies of this Government which has taken place over the past 10 years.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, does my noble friend regard his suggestion that the views of the CAA are not yet known on this matter as consistent with the letter dated 17th July from the chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority to the Secretary of State in which it is clearly stated that the CAA has already indicated its view that there is a need for a new runway in the South East?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, yes, but what the CAA has to consider in its advice is whether we need additional capacity at an existing major south-eastern airport; the development of a full 1122 runway's capacity at another aerodrome; the equivalent of a full runway's capacity through development at more than one location; or the expansion of the capacity of near regional airports. Those are the kinds of matters on which we require the advice of the CAA.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am asking about the question of delay? Someone has to keep on about the matter. I ask the Minister whether he has on file in his office a copy of the letter which the chairman of the CAA wrote to The Times earlier this year stressing the urgency of reaching a decision as regards runway capacity in the South East. When are we to get some action? I am concerned not with what advice is tendered but with when it is. We shall have waited two years already. Does the Minister not agree that it takes between 10 to 12 years from the plans being on the drawing board to a runway being laid? When are we going to get something done about it?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not certain that I can add very much to what I have already said at Question Time this afternoon. I am well aware of the letter that the chairman of the CAA wrote to The Times newspaper. It is from the CAA that we are awaiting the advice that we need. If a new runway is required in the South East, estimates for the need seem to vary between the year 2000 and the year 2005 or even later. That still gives us a reasonable amount of time from next year to do something about the problem.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister consider it a possibility to widen the area of this long-running consultation to include perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, and my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, among others?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the views expressed in your Lordships' House do reach the ears of the department through me and I have no doubt that they reach the CAA as well. The period of consultation is over and it is the advice that we now wait for.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, does the Minister not accept that there are great environmental questions to be taken into account in this matter and it is not merely a question of commerce, holidays and trade? The environmental impact of extra runway capacity has to be considered not only now but way into the future.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I believe I indicated that fact in my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon.