European Community Fraud (Hansard, 20 July 1989)

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, a copy of the Commission's 45 point work programme has been deposited in the Library of the House. The Commission has already presented new or revised proposals in the two key areas of export refunds and intervention storage.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. Can the noble Lord inform the House whether his noble friend Lord Young of Graffham, who answered a Question on this subject on 13th July, his department, and the Treasury, have been able to identify the conference on international commercial crime to which I referred in my Question of 13th July and about which the noble Lord admitted he knew nothing? When questioned he said that his department could not send along representatives to every conference of that sort. Can the noble Lord inform me whether he is now aware of that conference and of its significance, bearing in mind that it was attended by 33 countries and specifically discussed fraud within the European Community?
Can the noble Lord also inform the House whether his department has yet seen the communication sent by the European Commission to the Ministry of Agriculture on the subject of fraud, upon which the Commission issued an explanatory memorandum some 14 days ago?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as to the conference to which the noble Lord referred I have nothing to add to what my noble friend Lord Young said on 13th July. As regards the paper to which the noble Lord referred which has apparently been sent to the Ministry of Agriculture, I am sure that my colleagues in the Treasury will have seen that by now.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, on the question of combating Community fraud would my noble friend agree that as the prosecuting authorities in the member states may not take proceedings for fraud where the offence has been committed in another member state, and as the respective laws of each of the member states, to which this whole idea of Community fraud is wholly subservient, are dissimilar, there are really no effective steps which can ever be taken to combat fraud until a convention is established at the Council of Ministers level. Will my noble friend give earnest consideration to that proposal?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I shall of course pass on my noble friend's remarks. As he said, decisions to prosecute are matters for national authorities. To confer that right across the Community would require legislation in all member states. The United Kingdom has played a constructive role in work on the proposed Community Crimes Convention, although we have been concerned to ensure that the provisions of any such treaty are properly targeted and take account of our system of criminal law.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, as virtually all the fraud in the Community arises from the common agricultural policy, and as the common agricultural policy is against all the Government believe in relation to free and open trade, will they not redouble their efforts to get rid of this absurd, wasteful and expensive system?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the Government want to take a practical, not a utopian, approach. We have pressed both for improvements in the way the Community fights fraud, where I have been able to report solid progress to the House, and, as the noble Lord will be aware, in the way the CAP operates; and not unsuccessfully there, either.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, does that mean that the Government now believe that the free market is utopian?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
No, my Lords, that is not what I said. I said that we want to take a practical approach in tackling fraud, and not the utopian one of abolishing the CAP altogether which the noble Lord suggested.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, the fundamental questions submitted by my noble friend Lord Bruce of Donington are of great interest to everyone concerned with these issues. Would it not assist us if the Minister and his noble friend Lord Young could gather documents and place them in the Library?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not quite sure which documents the noble Lord wants to have placed in the Library in addition to the one referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, in his original Question, which I said has been placed in the Library. The noble Lord will be able to refer to it there.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the lowest estimate of EC fraud is equal to twice the total income of the whole of British farming and the highest estimate to six times the total income of British farming? Does this not indicate the scale and severity of the problem?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I shall not comment on the noble Lord's estimates. We take this problem extremely seriously, and we have been at the forefront among member states in trying to do something about it.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his answers this afternoon have been thoroughly unsatisfactory? Is he further aware that, on the lowest estimates, these frauds involve the British taxpayer in a net loss of some £400 million a year? Will the Government please give some concrete evidence, as distinct from evasion, that they take these problems seriously and will do something about them?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the answer to the first part of the noble Lord's question is, no; and to the second part, yes.